Gomel chasadim tovim - are there bad chasadim?
In the first b’racha of the amidah, Avos, we say "גומל חסדים טובים"... which is normally translated something like- “who does good deeds...” but literally, “Gomel chasadim” by itself means “does good deeds”, so the word “tovim” is extra!
Does anyone have an idea/ sources what the extra word is there for?
grammar-dikduk shemoneh-esrei
New contributor
add a comment |
In the first b’racha of the amidah, Avos, we say "גומל חסדים טובים"... which is normally translated something like- “who does good deeds...” but literally, “Gomel chasadim” by itself means “does good deeds”, so the word “tovim” is extra!
Does anyone have an idea/ sources what the extra word is there for?
grammar-dikduk shemoneh-esrei
New contributor
1
This is a great question as is, Lo Ani, but a Purim Torah version would also be nice ;)
– Josh K
3 hours ago
2
@JoshK Especially if you read it Bad Chassidim. ;)
– ezra
1 hour ago
@ezra, why do I feel like I'm supposed to come up with that PTIJ ?
– Noach MiFrankfurt
1 hour ago
add a comment |
In the first b’racha of the amidah, Avos, we say "גומל חסדים טובים"... which is normally translated something like- “who does good deeds...” but literally, “Gomel chasadim” by itself means “does good deeds”, so the word “tovim” is extra!
Does anyone have an idea/ sources what the extra word is there for?
grammar-dikduk shemoneh-esrei
New contributor
In the first b’racha of the amidah, Avos, we say "גומל חסדים טובים"... which is normally translated something like- “who does good deeds...” but literally, “Gomel chasadim” by itself means “does good deeds”, so the word “tovim” is extra!
Does anyone have an idea/ sources what the extra word is there for?
grammar-dikduk shemoneh-esrei
grammar-dikduk shemoneh-esrei
New contributor
New contributor
edited 10 hours ago
Al Berko
5,798528
5,798528
New contributor
asked 12 hours ago
Lo ani Lo ani
2258
2258
New contributor
New contributor
1
This is a great question as is, Lo Ani, but a Purim Torah version would also be nice ;)
– Josh K
3 hours ago
2
@JoshK Especially if you read it Bad Chassidim. ;)
– ezra
1 hour ago
@ezra, why do I feel like I'm supposed to come up with that PTIJ ?
– Noach MiFrankfurt
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
This is a great question as is, Lo Ani, but a Purim Torah version would also be nice ;)
– Josh K
3 hours ago
2
@JoshK Especially if you read it Bad Chassidim. ;)
– ezra
1 hour ago
@ezra, why do I feel like I'm supposed to come up with that PTIJ ?
– Noach MiFrankfurt
1 hour ago
1
1
This is a great question as is, Lo Ani, but a Purim Torah version would also be nice ;)
– Josh K
3 hours ago
This is a great question as is, Lo Ani, but a Purim Torah version would also be nice ;)
– Josh K
3 hours ago
2
2
@JoshK Especially if you read it Bad Chassidim. ;)
– ezra
1 hour ago
@JoshK Especially if you read it Bad Chassidim. ;)
– ezra
1 hour ago
@ezra, why do I feel like I'm supposed to come up with that PTIJ ?
– Noach MiFrankfurt
1 hour ago
@ezra, why do I feel like I'm supposed to come up with that PTIJ ?
– Noach MiFrankfurt
1 hour ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
This concept is pretty common, that even the good deeds have to have a good measure - too much good for people and you spoil them, for example:
The Torah says (Dvorim 32):
"חֶמְאַת בָּקָר וַחֲלֵב צֹאן עִם־חֵלֶב כָּרִים וְאֵילִים בְּנֵי־בָשָׁן וְעַתּוּדִים עִם־חֵלֶב כִּלְיוֹת חִטָּה וְדַם־עֵנָב תִּשְׁתֶּה־חָמֶר׃ וַיִּשְׁמַן יְשֻׁרוּן וַיִּבְעָט שָׁמַנְתָּ עָבִיתָ כָּשִׂיתָ וַיִּטֹּשׁ אֱלוֹהַ עָשָׂהוּ וַיְנַבֵּל צוּר יְשֻׁעָתוֹ׃
"Curd of kine and milk of flocks; With the best of lambs, And rams of Bashan, and he-goats; With the very finest wheat— And foaming grape-blood was your drink. So Israel grew fat and kicked— You grew fat and gross and coarse— He forsook the God who made him And spurned the Rock of his support.
A similar example is brought in the Midrash () that the gold that Hashem gave the Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus was used later to create the Golden Calf.
Therefore some חסדים can turn out to be actually bad and we pray for Hashem to give only "the good ones".
add a comment |
Some thoughts:
טוב can be used to mean complete. For example:
One of Rashi's explanations of why it says טוב zero times on day 2 of Creation and twice on day 3 is because nothing was completed on day 2, and day 3 had the completion of the creation of day 2 and day 3.
One understanding of Chazal in that Moshe's mother saw that he was "טוב" is that he was born circumcised, which means he was already "completed."
Hashem's חסד is complete - Hashem gives in such a way that we can fully benefit from His gifts. He also allows us to earn our reward, thus making the giving complete in that we don't experience embarrassment or shame in receiving.
טוב can mean lasting. The Ramban writes that when Hashem "saw that it was good" in Creation, he saw that it was ראוי להתקיים, fit to persist. Hashem's חסד is permanent, and the reward that we receive is not just a momentary pleasure.
חסד is not intrinsically good. As a case in point, sibling incest is described in the Torah as חסד. R' Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyahu vol. 2 pages 165) describes that Yishmael had the Middah of חסד not tempered by גבורה, and it was חסד taken to its illegitimate extreme in which it is a negative force. The חסד that Hashem does for us is purely positive.
חסד can be short-sighted. For example, if I do my son's math homework for him every night, he can spend more time playing. But when he fails his math test, my "חסד" won't be so helpful.
- The Siach Yitzchok seems to take this approach - on the phrase in question, his comment is "תכליתם טוב", that Hashem's חסד is ultimately good and leads to only good.
חסד, even from Hashem, can be detrimental. Rabbeinu Peretz in his Maareches HaElokus writes that had Yitzchok followed in the path of his father and worked further on the Middah of חסד, the resulting shift of Hashem's חסד in His relationship with the world would have unbalanced the scales of justice, nullified the existence of retribution, and reduced the opportunity for Avodas Hashem, for which the world was created.
add a comment |
Abudraham says the phrase is not distinguishing bad chesed from good chesed, but more like neutral chesed, which is the recompense humans do for other humans, vs. divine chesed, which is goodness beyond that standard that God delivers.
גומל חסדים טובים - ע"ש "אֲשֶׁר גְּמָלָם כְּרַחֲמָיו וּכְרֹב חֲסָדָיו". טובים יותר מגמילות חסדי האדם, והוא ע"ש "טוב ה' לכל
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This concept is pretty common, that even the good deeds have to have a good measure - too much good for people and you spoil them, for example:
The Torah says (Dvorim 32):
"חֶמְאַת בָּקָר וַחֲלֵב צֹאן עִם־חֵלֶב כָּרִים וְאֵילִים בְּנֵי־בָשָׁן וְעַתּוּדִים עִם־חֵלֶב כִּלְיוֹת חִטָּה וְדַם־עֵנָב תִּשְׁתֶּה־חָמֶר׃ וַיִּשְׁמַן יְשֻׁרוּן וַיִּבְעָט שָׁמַנְתָּ עָבִיתָ כָּשִׂיתָ וַיִּטֹּשׁ אֱלוֹהַ עָשָׂהוּ וַיְנַבֵּל צוּר יְשֻׁעָתוֹ׃
"Curd of kine and milk of flocks; With the best of lambs, And rams of Bashan, and he-goats; With the very finest wheat— And foaming grape-blood was your drink. So Israel grew fat and kicked— You grew fat and gross and coarse— He forsook the God who made him And spurned the Rock of his support.
A similar example is brought in the Midrash () that the gold that Hashem gave the Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus was used later to create the Golden Calf.
Therefore some חסדים can turn out to be actually bad and we pray for Hashem to give only "the good ones".
add a comment |
This concept is pretty common, that even the good deeds have to have a good measure - too much good for people and you spoil them, for example:
The Torah says (Dvorim 32):
"חֶמְאַת בָּקָר וַחֲלֵב צֹאן עִם־חֵלֶב כָּרִים וְאֵילִים בְּנֵי־בָשָׁן וְעַתּוּדִים עִם־חֵלֶב כִּלְיוֹת חִטָּה וְדַם־עֵנָב תִּשְׁתֶּה־חָמֶר׃ וַיִּשְׁמַן יְשֻׁרוּן וַיִּבְעָט שָׁמַנְתָּ עָבִיתָ כָּשִׂיתָ וַיִּטֹּשׁ אֱלוֹהַ עָשָׂהוּ וַיְנַבֵּל צוּר יְשֻׁעָתוֹ׃
"Curd of kine and milk of flocks; With the best of lambs, And rams of Bashan, and he-goats; With the very finest wheat— And foaming grape-blood was your drink. So Israel grew fat and kicked— You grew fat and gross and coarse— He forsook the God who made him And spurned the Rock of his support.
A similar example is brought in the Midrash () that the gold that Hashem gave the Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus was used later to create the Golden Calf.
Therefore some חסדים can turn out to be actually bad and we pray for Hashem to give only "the good ones".
add a comment |
This concept is pretty common, that even the good deeds have to have a good measure - too much good for people and you spoil them, for example:
The Torah says (Dvorim 32):
"חֶמְאַת בָּקָר וַחֲלֵב צֹאן עִם־חֵלֶב כָּרִים וְאֵילִים בְּנֵי־בָשָׁן וְעַתּוּדִים עִם־חֵלֶב כִּלְיוֹת חִטָּה וְדַם־עֵנָב תִּשְׁתֶּה־חָמֶר׃ וַיִּשְׁמַן יְשֻׁרוּן וַיִּבְעָט שָׁמַנְתָּ עָבִיתָ כָּשִׂיתָ וַיִּטֹּשׁ אֱלוֹהַ עָשָׂהוּ וַיְנַבֵּל צוּר יְשֻׁעָתוֹ׃
"Curd of kine and milk of flocks; With the best of lambs, And rams of Bashan, and he-goats; With the very finest wheat— And foaming grape-blood was your drink. So Israel grew fat and kicked— You grew fat and gross and coarse— He forsook the God who made him And spurned the Rock of his support.
A similar example is brought in the Midrash () that the gold that Hashem gave the Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus was used later to create the Golden Calf.
Therefore some חסדים can turn out to be actually bad and we pray for Hashem to give only "the good ones".
This concept is pretty common, that even the good deeds have to have a good measure - too much good for people and you spoil them, for example:
The Torah says (Dvorim 32):
"חֶמְאַת בָּקָר וַחֲלֵב צֹאן עִם־חֵלֶב כָּרִים וְאֵילִים בְּנֵי־בָשָׁן וְעַתּוּדִים עִם־חֵלֶב כִּלְיוֹת חִטָּה וְדַם־עֵנָב תִּשְׁתֶּה־חָמֶר׃ וַיִּשְׁמַן יְשֻׁרוּן וַיִּבְעָט שָׁמַנְתָּ עָבִיתָ כָּשִׂיתָ וַיִּטֹּשׁ אֱלוֹהַ עָשָׂהוּ וַיְנַבֵּל צוּר יְשֻׁעָתוֹ׃
"Curd of kine and milk of flocks; With the best of lambs, And rams of Bashan, and he-goats; With the very finest wheat— And foaming grape-blood was your drink. So Israel grew fat and kicked— You grew fat and gross and coarse— He forsook the God who made him And spurned the Rock of his support.
A similar example is brought in the Midrash () that the gold that Hashem gave the Israelites in Egypt before the Exodus was used later to create the Golden Calf.
Therefore some חסדים can turn out to be actually bad and we pray for Hashem to give only "the good ones".
answered 10 hours ago
Al BerkoAl Berko
5,798528
5,798528
add a comment |
add a comment |
Some thoughts:
טוב can be used to mean complete. For example:
One of Rashi's explanations of why it says טוב zero times on day 2 of Creation and twice on day 3 is because nothing was completed on day 2, and day 3 had the completion of the creation of day 2 and day 3.
One understanding of Chazal in that Moshe's mother saw that he was "טוב" is that he was born circumcised, which means he was already "completed."
Hashem's חסד is complete - Hashem gives in such a way that we can fully benefit from His gifts. He also allows us to earn our reward, thus making the giving complete in that we don't experience embarrassment or shame in receiving.
טוב can mean lasting. The Ramban writes that when Hashem "saw that it was good" in Creation, he saw that it was ראוי להתקיים, fit to persist. Hashem's חסד is permanent, and the reward that we receive is not just a momentary pleasure.
חסד is not intrinsically good. As a case in point, sibling incest is described in the Torah as חסד. R' Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyahu vol. 2 pages 165) describes that Yishmael had the Middah of חסד not tempered by גבורה, and it was חסד taken to its illegitimate extreme in which it is a negative force. The חסד that Hashem does for us is purely positive.
חסד can be short-sighted. For example, if I do my son's math homework for him every night, he can spend more time playing. But when he fails his math test, my "חסד" won't be so helpful.
- The Siach Yitzchok seems to take this approach - on the phrase in question, his comment is "תכליתם טוב", that Hashem's חסד is ultimately good and leads to only good.
חסד, even from Hashem, can be detrimental. Rabbeinu Peretz in his Maareches HaElokus writes that had Yitzchok followed in the path of his father and worked further on the Middah of חסד, the resulting shift of Hashem's חסד in His relationship with the world would have unbalanced the scales of justice, nullified the existence of retribution, and reduced the opportunity for Avodas Hashem, for which the world was created.
add a comment |
Some thoughts:
טוב can be used to mean complete. For example:
One of Rashi's explanations of why it says טוב zero times on day 2 of Creation and twice on day 3 is because nothing was completed on day 2, and day 3 had the completion of the creation of day 2 and day 3.
One understanding of Chazal in that Moshe's mother saw that he was "טוב" is that he was born circumcised, which means he was already "completed."
Hashem's חסד is complete - Hashem gives in such a way that we can fully benefit from His gifts. He also allows us to earn our reward, thus making the giving complete in that we don't experience embarrassment or shame in receiving.
טוב can mean lasting. The Ramban writes that when Hashem "saw that it was good" in Creation, he saw that it was ראוי להתקיים, fit to persist. Hashem's חסד is permanent, and the reward that we receive is not just a momentary pleasure.
חסד is not intrinsically good. As a case in point, sibling incest is described in the Torah as חסד. R' Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyahu vol. 2 pages 165) describes that Yishmael had the Middah of חסד not tempered by גבורה, and it was חסד taken to its illegitimate extreme in which it is a negative force. The חסד that Hashem does for us is purely positive.
חסד can be short-sighted. For example, if I do my son's math homework for him every night, he can spend more time playing. But when he fails his math test, my "חסד" won't be so helpful.
- The Siach Yitzchok seems to take this approach - on the phrase in question, his comment is "תכליתם טוב", that Hashem's חסד is ultimately good and leads to only good.
חסד, even from Hashem, can be detrimental. Rabbeinu Peretz in his Maareches HaElokus writes that had Yitzchok followed in the path of his father and worked further on the Middah of חסד, the resulting shift of Hashem's חסד in His relationship with the world would have unbalanced the scales of justice, nullified the existence of retribution, and reduced the opportunity for Avodas Hashem, for which the world was created.
add a comment |
Some thoughts:
טוב can be used to mean complete. For example:
One of Rashi's explanations of why it says טוב zero times on day 2 of Creation and twice on day 3 is because nothing was completed on day 2, and day 3 had the completion of the creation of day 2 and day 3.
One understanding of Chazal in that Moshe's mother saw that he was "טוב" is that he was born circumcised, which means he was already "completed."
Hashem's חסד is complete - Hashem gives in such a way that we can fully benefit from His gifts. He also allows us to earn our reward, thus making the giving complete in that we don't experience embarrassment or shame in receiving.
טוב can mean lasting. The Ramban writes that when Hashem "saw that it was good" in Creation, he saw that it was ראוי להתקיים, fit to persist. Hashem's חסד is permanent, and the reward that we receive is not just a momentary pleasure.
חסד is not intrinsically good. As a case in point, sibling incest is described in the Torah as חסד. R' Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyahu vol. 2 pages 165) describes that Yishmael had the Middah of חסד not tempered by גבורה, and it was חסד taken to its illegitimate extreme in which it is a negative force. The חסד that Hashem does for us is purely positive.
חסד can be short-sighted. For example, if I do my son's math homework for him every night, he can spend more time playing. But when he fails his math test, my "חסד" won't be so helpful.
- The Siach Yitzchok seems to take this approach - on the phrase in question, his comment is "תכליתם טוב", that Hashem's חסד is ultimately good and leads to only good.
חסד, even from Hashem, can be detrimental. Rabbeinu Peretz in his Maareches HaElokus writes that had Yitzchok followed in the path of his father and worked further on the Middah of חסד, the resulting shift of Hashem's חסד in His relationship with the world would have unbalanced the scales of justice, nullified the existence of retribution, and reduced the opportunity for Avodas Hashem, for which the world was created.
Some thoughts:
טוב can be used to mean complete. For example:
One of Rashi's explanations of why it says טוב zero times on day 2 of Creation and twice on day 3 is because nothing was completed on day 2, and day 3 had the completion of the creation of day 2 and day 3.
One understanding of Chazal in that Moshe's mother saw that he was "טוב" is that he was born circumcised, which means he was already "completed."
Hashem's חסד is complete - Hashem gives in such a way that we can fully benefit from His gifts. He also allows us to earn our reward, thus making the giving complete in that we don't experience embarrassment or shame in receiving.
טוב can mean lasting. The Ramban writes that when Hashem "saw that it was good" in Creation, he saw that it was ראוי להתקיים, fit to persist. Hashem's חסד is permanent, and the reward that we receive is not just a momentary pleasure.
חסד is not intrinsically good. As a case in point, sibling incest is described in the Torah as חסד. R' Dessler (Michtav M'Eliyahu vol. 2 pages 165) describes that Yishmael had the Middah of חסד not tempered by גבורה, and it was חסד taken to its illegitimate extreme in which it is a negative force. The חסד that Hashem does for us is purely positive.
חסד can be short-sighted. For example, if I do my son's math homework for him every night, he can spend more time playing. But when he fails his math test, my "חסד" won't be so helpful.
- The Siach Yitzchok seems to take this approach - on the phrase in question, his comment is "תכליתם טוב", that Hashem's חסד is ultimately good and leads to only good.
חסד, even from Hashem, can be detrimental. Rabbeinu Peretz in his Maareches HaElokus writes that had Yitzchok followed in the path of his father and worked further on the Middah of חסד, the resulting shift of Hashem's חסד in His relationship with the world would have unbalanced the scales of justice, nullified the existence of retribution, and reduced the opportunity for Avodas Hashem, for which the world was created.
answered 1 hour ago
Y e zY e z
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Abudraham says the phrase is not distinguishing bad chesed from good chesed, but more like neutral chesed, which is the recompense humans do for other humans, vs. divine chesed, which is goodness beyond that standard that God delivers.
גומל חסדים טובים - ע"ש "אֲשֶׁר גְּמָלָם כְּרַחֲמָיו וּכְרֹב חֲסָדָיו". טובים יותר מגמילות חסדי האדם, והוא ע"ש "טוב ה' לכל
add a comment |
Abudraham says the phrase is not distinguishing bad chesed from good chesed, but more like neutral chesed, which is the recompense humans do for other humans, vs. divine chesed, which is goodness beyond that standard that God delivers.
גומל חסדים טובים - ע"ש "אֲשֶׁר גְּמָלָם כְּרַחֲמָיו וּכְרֹב חֲסָדָיו". טובים יותר מגמילות חסדי האדם, והוא ע"ש "טוב ה' לכל
add a comment |
Abudraham says the phrase is not distinguishing bad chesed from good chesed, but more like neutral chesed, which is the recompense humans do for other humans, vs. divine chesed, which is goodness beyond that standard that God delivers.
גומל חסדים טובים - ע"ש "אֲשֶׁר גְּמָלָם כְּרַחֲמָיו וּכְרֹב חֲסָדָיו". טובים יותר מגמילות חסדי האדם, והוא ע"ש "טוב ה' לכל
Abudraham says the phrase is not distinguishing bad chesed from good chesed, but more like neutral chesed, which is the recompense humans do for other humans, vs. divine chesed, which is goodness beyond that standard that God delivers.
גומל חסדים טובים - ע"ש "אֲשֶׁר גְּמָלָם כְּרַחֲמָיו וּכְרֹב חֲסָדָיו". טובים יותר מגמילות חסדי האדם, והוא ע"ש "טוב ה' לכל
answered 1 hour ago
WAFWAF
17.3k434101
17.3k434101
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1
This is a great question as is, Lo Ani, but a Purim Torah version would also be nice ;)
– Josh K
3 hours ago
2
@JoshK Especially if you read it Bad Chassidim. ;)
– ezra
1 hour ago
@ezra, why do I feel like I'm supposed to come up with that PTIJ ?
– Noach MiFrankfurt
1 hour ago