Uncertainty principle for a sitting person











up vote
17
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If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.



What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?










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  • 7




    I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
    – K_inverse
    Nov 12 at 1:16






  • 2




    @K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
    – Luaan
    Nov 12 at 11:22






  • 2




    If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
    – Francesco
    Nov 12 at 11:48






  • 7




    You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
    – mkrieger1
    Nov 12 at 13:54






  • 18




    Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
    – Pavel
    Nov 12 at 19:44















up vote
17
down vote

favorite
6












If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.



What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 7




    I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
    – K_inverse
    Nov 12 at 1:16






  • 2




    @K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
    – Luaan
    Nov 12 at 11:22






  • 2




    If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
    – Francesco
    Nov 12 at 11:48






  • 7




    You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
    – mkrieger1
    Nov 12 at 13:54






  • 18




    Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
    – Pavel
    Nov 12 at 19:44













up vote
17
down vote

favorite
6









up vote
17
down vote

favorite
6






6





If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.



What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?










share|cite|improve this question















If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero and his uncertainty in position should be infinite. But we can obviously position him at most within few chair lengths.



What am I missing? Do we have to invoke earth's motion, motion of the galaxy etc. to resolve the issue?







heisenberg-uncertainty-principle estimation






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 14 at 0:45









Qmechanic

99.5k121781112




99.5k121781112










asked Nov 12 at 1:05









Fakrudeen

341311




341311








  • 7




    I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
    – K_inverse
    Nov 12 at 1:16






  • 2




    @K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
    – Luaan
    Nov 12 at 11:22






  • 2




    If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
    – Francesco
    Nov 12 at 11:48






  • 7




    You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
    – mkrieger1
    Nov 12 at 13:54






  • 18




    Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
    – Pavel
    Nov 12 at 19:44














  • 7




    I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
    – K_inverse
    Nov 12 at 1:16






  • 2




    @K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
    – Luaan
    Nov 12 at 11:22






  • 2




    If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
    – Francesco
    Nov 12 at 11:48






  • 7




    You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
    – mkrieger1
    Nov 12 at 13:54






  • 18




    Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
    – Pavel
    Nov 12 at 19:44








7




7




I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
Nov 12 at 1:16




I wonder if the quantum phenomena can still be observed in such a large scale system...
– K_inverse
Nov 12 at 1:16




2




2




@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
Nov 12 at 11:22




@K_inverse Yes, they can. But as soon as you try that, you'd realize neither the momentum nor the position is perfectly localized, so the premise of the question is false - you decidedly don't have "zero momentum" when sitting on a chair.
– Luaan
Nov 12 at 11:22




2




2




If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
Nov 12 at 11:48




If it is a rocking chair you don't have zero uncertainty in the position even at macroscopic level :-)
– Francesco
Nov 12 at 11:48




7




7




You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
Nov 12 at 13:54




You're confusing the momentum with the uncertainty in momentum.
– mkrieger1
Nov 12 at 13:54




18




18




Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
Nov 12 at 19:44




Since I unexpectedly gained huge momentum very unexpectedly while sitting on an IKEA chair, I have never again felt any certainty about my position in the universe.
– Pavel
Nov 12 at 19:44










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
103
down vote



accepted











If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...




How close to zero?



The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$

so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$

In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.



This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.






share|cite|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 15:09






  • 2




    @Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
    – Pilchard123
    Nov 12 at 15:57






  • 3




    @Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 16:20








  • 3




    +1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
    – AnoE
    Nov 12 at 23:03






  • 9




    @AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
    – Pere
    Nov 13 at 10:33


















up vote
30
down vote













If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?



Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 19




    I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
    – David Richerby
    Nov 12 at 17:50






  • 7




    @DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
    – SGR
    Nov 13 at 13:34











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2 Answers
2






active

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2 Answers
2






active

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active

oldest

votes








up vote
103
down vote



accepted











If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...




How close to zero?



The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$

so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$

In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.



This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.






share|cite|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 15:09






  • 2




    @Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
    – Pilchard123
    Nov 12 at 15:57






  • 3




    @Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 16:20








  • 3




    +1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
    – AnoE
    Nov 12 at 23:03






  • 9




    @AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
    – Pere
    Nov 13 at 10:33















up vote
103
down vote



accepted











If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...




How close to zero?



The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$

so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$

In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.



This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.






share|cite|improve this answer



















  • 1




    Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 15:09






  • 2




    @Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
    – Pilchard123
    Nov 12 at 15:57






  • 3




    @Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 16:20








  • 3




    +1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
    – AnoE
    Nov 12 at 23:03






  • 9




    @AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
    – Pere
    Nov 13 at 10:33













up vote
103
down vote



accepted







up vote
103
down vote



accepted







If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...




How close to zero?



The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$

so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$

In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.



This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.






share|cite|improve this answer















If a person is sitting on a chair his momentum is zero...




How close to zero?



The uncertainty principle says that if $Delta x$ is the uncertainty in position and $Delta p$ is the uncertainty in momentum, then $Delta x,Delta psim hbar$. So, consider an object with the mass of a person, say $M = 70$ kg. Suppose the uncertainty in this object's position is roughly the size of a proton, say $Delta x = 10^{-15}$ meters. The uncertainty principle says that the uncertainty in momentum must be
$$
Delta psimfrac{hbar}{Delta x}approxfrac{1 times 10^{-34}text{ meter}^2text{ kg / second}}{10^{-15}text{ meter}}approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second},
$$

so the uncertainty in the object's velocity is
$$
Delta v=frac{Delta p}{M}approx frac{approx 1times 10^{-19}text{ meter kg / second}}{text{70 kg}}sim 1times 10^{-21}text{ meter / second}.
$$

In other words, the uncertainty in the person's velocity would be roughly one proton-radius per month.



This shows that the uncertainties in a person's position and momentum can both be zero as far as we can ever hope to tell, and this is not at all in conflict with the uncertainty principle.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 12 at 1:42

























answered Nov 12 at 1:22









Dan Yand

2,8991316




2,8991316








  • 1




    Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 15:09






  • 2




    @Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
    – Pilchard123
    Nov 12 at 15:57






  • 3




    @Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 16:20








  • 3




    +1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
    – AnoE
    Nov 12 at 23:03






  • 9




    @AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
    – Pere
    Nov 13 at 10:33














  • 1




    Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 15:09






  • 2




    @Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
    – Pilchard123
    Nov 12 at 15:57






  • 3




    @Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
    – Draco18s
    Nov 12 at 16:20








  • 3




    +1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
    – AnoE
    Nov 12 at 23:03






  • 9




    @AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
    – Pere
    Nov 13 at 10:33








1




1




Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
Nov 12 at 15:09




Reminds me that science is closing in on producing quantum effects on the macro scale. We're a ways off from a human, but a 120 carbon atom bucky ball? Smashed. (A coherent beam of humans would be an interesting engineering challenge...)
– Draco18s
Nov 12 at 15:09




2




2




@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
Nov 12 at 15:57




@Draco18s Isn't that a marching column?
– Pilchard123
Nov 12 at 15:57




3




3




@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
Nov 12 at 16:20






@Pilchard123 Yeah, but they don't maintain their momentum uncertainties when walking through double doors.
– Draco18s
Nov 12 at 16:20






3




3




+1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
– AnoE
Nov 12 at 23:03




+1 Great job taking a joke/troll question, applying correct physics, and ending with "zero as far as we can ever hope to tell".
– AnoE
Nov 12 at 23:03




9




9




@AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
– Pere
Nov 13 at 10:33




@AnoE - I wouldn't say that's a joke/troll question. It's interest to grasp the basics of uncertainty principle. In fact, basic physics textbooks examples are not far away from that question.
– Pere
Nov 13 at 10:33










up vote
30
down vote













If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?



Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 19




    I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
    – David Richerby
    Nov 12 at 17:50






  • 7




    @DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
    – SGR
    Nov 13 at 13:34















up vote
30
down vote













If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?



Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 19




    I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
    – David Richerby
    Nov 12 at 17:50






  • 7




    @DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
    – SGR
    Nov 13 at 13:34













up vote
30
down vote










up vote
30
down vote









If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?



Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.






share|cite|improve this answer












If we pretend that person is a quantum mechanical particle of mass $m=75$ kg and we localize him in a box of length $L=1$ m, then the resulting uncertainty in his velocity would be about one Planck length per second. Are you sure you know his velocity to within one Planck length per second?



Applying quantum mechanical principles to classical systems is always a recipe for disaster, but this underlying point is a good one - in macroscopic systems, the uncertainty principle implies fundamental uncertainties which are so small as to be completely meaningless from an observational point of view. If you were moving at a planck length per second for a hundred quadrillion years, you'd be about halfway across a hydrogen atom.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Nov 12 at 1:19









J. Murray

6,8462723




6,8462723








  • 19




    I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
    – David Richerby
    Nov 12 at 17:50






  • 7




    @DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
    – SGR
    Nov 13 at 13:34














  • 19




    I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
    – David Richerby
    Nov 12 at 17:50






  • 7




    @DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
    – SGR
    Nov 13 at 13:34








19




19




I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
Nov 12 at 17:50




I tried doing the experiment you suggest in your last sentence but the damned hydrogen atom wouldn't sit still and I gave up after a couple of weeks.
– David Richerby
Nov 12 at 17:50




7




7




@DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
– SGR
Nov 13 at 13:34




@DavidRicherby I'd be more concerned if you had convinced a hydrogen atom to stay still
– SGR
Nov 13 at 13:34


















 

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