What is the meaning and use of “seh” in Caribbean dialects of English?











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I have heard "seh" used in Jamaican English but I think it's probably used in other parts of the Caribbean too. It is used in sentences like:




"Mi know seh dem nuh like mi", meaning "I know that they don't like me"




In this case, "seh" seems to be used as an equivalent of one meaning of standard English "that". But I would like to know whether it has any other uses, and when people might choose to use "seh" instead of "that".



I'd also be interested to know about the etymology of the word.



Hopefully there are some Caribbeans on here who can shed some light on it.










share|improve this question






















  • The standard English is not equivalent. It should be something like: "I know they say they don't like me" which has a slightly different meaning.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:49






  • 2




    On a side note, the thing that helps a lot in understanding these dialects is understanding that 'them' (or 'dem') is often used to pluralize. E.g. "Horse them" meaning multiple horses. Once I learned this, phrases that were previously indecipherable to me became understandable.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:55










  • "I know .. say them .. don't like me". "say them" is "they are saying". (A bit like "Say's who? - say's me!")
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:48

















up vote
21
down vote

favorite
3












I have heard "seh" used in Jamaican English but I think it's probably used in other parts of the Caribbean too. It is used in sentences like:




"Mi know seh dem nuh like mi", meaning "I know that they don't like me"




In this case, "seh" seems to be used as an equivalent of one meaning of standard English "that". But I would like to know whether it has any other uses, and when people might choose to use "seh" instead of "that".



I'd also be interested to know about the etymology of the word.



Hopefully there are some Caribbeans on here who can shed some light on it.










share|improve this question






















  • The standard English is not equivalent. It should be something like: "I know they say they don't like me" which has a slightly different meaning.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:49






  • 2




    On a side note, the thing that helps a lot in understanding these dialects is understanding that 'them' (or 'dem') is often used to pluralize. E.g. "Horse them" meaning multiple horses. Once I learned this, phrases that were previously indecipherable to me became understandable.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:55










  • "I know .. say them .. don't like me". "say them" is "they are saying". (A bit like "Say's who? - say's me!")
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:48















up vote
21
down vote

favorite
3









up vote
21
down vote

favorite
3






3





I have heard "seh" used in Jamaican English but I think it's probably used in other parts of the Caribbean too. It is used in sentences like:




"Mi know seh dem nuh like mi", meaning "I know that they don't like me"




In this case, "seh" seems to be used as an equivalent of one meaning of standard English "that". But I would like to know whether it has any other uses, and when people might choose to use "seh" instead of "that".



I'd also be interested to know about the etymology of the word.



Hopefully there are some Caribbeans on here who can shed some light on it.










share|improve this question













I have heard "seh" used in Jamaican English but I think it's probably used in other parts of the Caribbean too. It is used in sentences like:




"Mi know seh dem nuh like mi", meaning "I know that they don't like me"




In this case, "seh" seems to be used as an equivalent of one meaning of standard English "that". But I would like to know whether it has any other uses, and when people might choose to use "seh" instead of "that".



I'd also be interested to know about the etymology of the word.



Hopefully there are some Caribbeans on here who can shed some light on it.







dialects caribbean-english






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











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asked Dec 3 at 13:52









Tim Foster

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44210












  • The standard English is not equivalent. It should be something like: "I know they say they don't like me" which has a slightly different meaning.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:49






  • 2




    On a side note, the thing that helps a lot in understanding these dialects is understanding that 'them' (or 'dem') is often used to pluralize. E.g. "Horse them" meaning multiple horses. Once I learned this, phrases that were previously indecipherable to me became understandable.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:55










  • "I know .. say them .. don't like me". "say them" is "they are saying". (A bit like "Say's who? - say's me!")
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:48




















  • The standard English is not equivalent. It should be something like: "I know they say they don't like me" which has a slightly different meaning.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:49






  • 2




    On a side note, the thing that helps a lot in understanding these dialects is understanding that 'them' (or 'dem') is often used to pluralize. E.g. "Horse them" meaning multiple horses. Once I learned this, phrases that were previously indecipherable to me became understandable.
    – JimmyJames
    Dec 3 at 17:55










  • "I know .. say them .. don't like me". "say them" is "they are saying". (A bit like "Say's who? - say's me!")
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:48


















The standard English is not equivalent. It should be something like: "I know they say they don't like me" which has a slightly different meaning.
– JimmyJames
Dec 3 at 17:49




The standard English is not equivalent. It should be something like: "I know they say they don't like me" which has a slightly different meaning.
– JimmyJames
Dec 3 at 17:49




2




2




On a side note, the thing that helps a lot in understanding these dialects is understanding that 'them' (or 'dem') is often used to pluralize. E.g. "Horse them" meaning multiple horses. Once I learned this, phrases that were previously indecipherable to me became understandable.
– JimmyJames
Dec 3 at 17:55




On a side note, the thing that helps a lot in understanding these dialects is understanding that 'them' (or 'dem') is often used to pluralize. E.g. "Horse them" meaning multiple horses. Once I learned this, phrases that were previously indecipherable to me became understandable.
– JimmyJames
Dec 3 at 17:55












"I know .. say them .. don't like me". "say them" is "they are saying". (A bit like "Say's who? - say's me!")
– Fattie
Dec 4 at 8:48






"I know .. say them .. don't like me". "say them" is "they are saying". (A bit like "Say's who? - say's me!")
– Fattie
Dec 4 at 8:48












2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
18
down vote













The meaning of seh



In Jamaican Patois at least, seh is a cognate of say.



For example, from JamaicanPatwah.com¹:




seh



English Translation
say



Definition
Saying



Example Sentences

Patois: Wah yuh seh?

English: What are you saying?




and from The Poetry Archive:




Nouns



In Creole, where a noun refers to a class of persons or things, as such, or where it is preceded by a number or some other expression of quantity, nothing is added to indicate plurality.



Dem seh / wi commandeer cyar
They say / said we commandeered cars

('Di Great Insohreckshan', Linton Kwesi Johnson)




So in your example, Mi know seh dem nuh like mi, I'd read this as I know they say they don't like me, rather than your reading of that.



Etymology



Linguists have used the term "lexifier" for the relationship between English and Jamaican patois or creole: that is, English supplies most of the words to the patois. Then they're subject to the phonology of that dialect.



Patois does interesting things with word-ending vowels, but I'm not versed enough to name the specific phonological alterations that produce "seh" from "say"; sufficed to say, the source (etymology) of "seh" in patois is "say" in English.



But, just like any other word, seh has evolved organically over time, and diverged from straight English say. Below, I'll review a couple of these extensions.



In set phrases



In certain set phrases, it has a different meaning, but that's more a function of the idiomacity of the phrase (taken as a whole) as opposed to the word.



From TheCultureTrip.com, 15 Jamaican Patois Phrases To Know:




Weh yuh ah seh



Literally translated as what are you saying, but actually meaning how are you doing. For example: Weh yuh a seh? Mi deh try call yuh means, How are you doing? I’ve been trying to call you.




To make the difference between a standalone word and a set phrase clearer, consider an AmE example: you could say "bucket" has a different definition in the phrase "kick the bucket", but that's misleading: it's the set phrase which has a specific meaning, and should be treated as a indivisible word (technically a lexeme).



Other



Here's a case where seh apparently has an entirely different meaning, and I don't know how to class it.



From Paxton Belcher-Timme, Rhetoric of Reggae, Patois: the language of Jamaica (December 1, 2009):




Patois: cooh deh, dem ah galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten

English: Look at that! They are behaving as if they do not have anything.



Cooh Deh! = Look at that!
Deh ah = They are
Galanga lakka she = Behaving as if




Here, note the example sentence has Galanga lakka seh, but the "English translation" has Galanga lakka she.



So I don't know:




  • which is the typo (meaning, this might not be discussing the word seh at all, but rather she),

  • or whether this is a set phrase,

  • or an entirely different meaning for the standalone word seh.


    • Though I find lakka seh for like saying a plausible semantic broadening to "acting like" (it's like they're saying for acting as if²).




Possibility as a function word



Janus Bahs Jacquet, one of our resident linguists, in a comment, made an interesting connection to generic complement markers in Japanese:




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican.



It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc.



Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.




I'm in no better position than Janus to corroborate this theory, but from the few examples I've examined today, it feels plausible.





¹ Patwah here being patois for Patois



² I didn't look this up, but if I had to guess, galanga is derived from "going along", "proceeding". Thus, galanga lakka say would be "going along like they're saying", i.e. proceeding as if. But again, this is speculation.






share|improve this answer



















  • 2




    I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    Dec 3 at 15:33






  • 1




    Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:37






  • 2




    In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • @Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
    – Dan Bron
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • "Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
    – Ben
    Dec 4 at 9:22




















up vote
7
down vote













Seh means 'is the case' or 'that', as well as being a way to say 'say'. Hence, "galang lakka seh" = behaving as if X is the case, and "me know seh" = I know that this is the case.




  • Native Patois speaker






share|improve this answer





















  • fascinating stuff !
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:49











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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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active

oldest

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active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes








up vote
18
down vote













The meaning of seh



In Jamaican Patois at least, seh is a cognate of say.



For example, from JamaicanPatwah.com¹:




seh



English Translation
say



Definition
Saying



Example Sentences

Patois: Wah yuh seh?

English: What are you saying?




and from The Poetry Archive:




Nouns



In Creole, where a noun refers to a class of persons or things, as such, or where it is preceded by a number or some other expression of quantity, nothing is added to indicate plurality.



Dem seh / wi commandeer cyar
They say / said we commandeered cars

('Di Great Insohreckshan', Linton Kwesi Johnson)




So in your example, Mi know seh dem nuh like mi, I'd read this as I know they say they don't like me, rather than your reading of that.



Etymology



Linguists have used the term "lexifier" for the relationship between English and Jamaican patois or creole: that is, English supplies most of the words to the patois. Then they're subject to the phonology of that dialect.



Patois does interesting things with word-ending vowels, but I'm not versed enough to name the specific phonological alterations that produce "seh" from "say"; sufficed to say, the source (etymology) of "seh" in patois is "say" in English.



But, just like any other word, seh has evolved organically over time, and diverged from straight English say. Below, I'll review a couple of these extensions.



In set phrases



In certain set phrases, it has a different meaning, but that's more a function of the idiomacity of the phrase (taken as a whole) as opposed to the word.



From TheCultureTrip.com, 15 Jamaican Patois Phrases To Know:




Weh yuh ah seh



Literally translated as what are you saying, but actually meaning how are you doing. For example: Weh yuh a seh? Mi deh try call yuh means, How are you doing? I’ve been trying to call you.




To make the difference between a standalone word and a set phrase clearer, consider an AmE example: you could say "bucket" has a different definition in the phrase "kick the bucket", but that's misleading: it's the set phrase which has a specific meaning, and should be treated as a indivisible word (technically a lexeme).



Other



Here's a case where seh apparently has an entirely different meaning, and I don't know how to class it.



From Paxton Belcher-Timme, Rhetoric of Reggae, Patois: the language of Jamaica (December 1, 2009):




Patois: cooh deh, dem ah galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten

English: Look at that! They are behaving as if they do not have anything.



Cooh Deh! = Look at that!
Deh ah = They are
Galanga lakka she = Behaving as if




Here, note the example sentence has Galanga lakka seh, but the "English translation" has Galanga lakka she.



So I don't know:




  • which is the typo (meaning, this might not be discussing the word seh at all, but rather she),

  • or whether this is a set phrase,

  • or an entirely different meaning for the standalone word seh.


    • Though I find lakka seh for like saying a plausible semantic broadening to "acting like" (it's like they're saying for acting as if²).




Possibility as a function word



Janus Bahs Jacquet, one of our resident linguists, in a comment, made an interesting connection to generic complement markers in Japanese:




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican.



It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc.



Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.




I'm in no better position than Janus to corroborate this theory, but from the few examples I've examined today, it feels plausible.





¹ Patwah here being patois for Patois



² I didn't look this up, but if I had to guess, galanga is derived from "going along", "proceeding". Thus, galanga lakka say would be "going along like they're saying", i.e. proceeding as if. But again, this is speculation.






share|improve this answer



















  • 2




    I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    Dec 3 at 15:33






  • 1




    Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:37






  • 2




    In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • @Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
    – Dan Bron
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • "Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
    – Ben
    Dec 4 at 9:22

















up vote
18
down vote













The meaning of seh



In Jamaican Patois at least, seh is a cognate of say.



For example, from JamaicanPatwah.com¹:




seh



English Translation
say



Definition
Saying



Example Sentences

Patois: Wah yuh seh?

English: What are you saying?




and from The Poetry Archive:




Nouns



In Creole, where a noun refers to a class of persons or things, as such, or where it is preceded by a number or some other expression of quantity, nothing is added to indicate plurality.



Dem seh / wi commandeer cyar
They say / said we commandeered cars

('Di Great Insohreckshan', Linton Kwesi Johnson)




So in your example, Mi know seh dem nuh like mi, I'd read this as I know they say they don't like me, rather than your reading of that.



Etymology



Linguists have used the term "lexifier" for the relationship between English and Jamaican patois or creole: that is, English supplies most of the words to the patois. Then they're subject to the phonology of that dialect.



Patois does interesting things with word-ending vowels, but I'm not versed enough to name the specific phonological alterations that produce "seh" from "say"; sufficed to say, the source (etymology) of "seh" in patois is "say" in English.



But, just like any other word, seh has evolved organically over time, and diverged from straight English say. Below, I'll review a couple of these extensions.



In set phrases



In certain set phrases, it has a different meaning, but that's more a function of the idiomacity of the phrase (taken as a whole) as opposed to the word.



From TheCultureTrip.com, 15 Jamaican Patois Phrases To Know:




Weh yuh ah seh



Literally translated as what are you saying, but actually meaning how are you doing. For example: Weh yuh a seh? Mi deh try call yuh means, How are you doing? I’ve been trying to call you.




To make the difference between a standalone word and a set phrase clearer, consider an AmE example: you could say "bucket" has a different definition in the phrase "kick the bucket", but that's misleading: it's the set phrase which has a specific meaning, and should be treated as a indivisible word (technically a lexeme).



Other



Here's a case where seh apparently has an entirely different meaning, and I don't know how to class it.



From Paxton Belcher-Timme, Rhetoric of Reggae, Patois: the language of Jamaica (December 1, 2009):




Patois: cooh deh, dem ah galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten

English: Look at that! They are behaving as if they do not have anything.



Cooh Deh! = Look at that!
Deh ah = They are
Galanga lakka she = Behaving as if




Here, note the example sentence has Galanga lakka seh, but the "English translation" has Galanga lakka she.



So I don't know:




  • which is the typo (meaning, this might not be discussing the word seh at all, but rather she),

  • or whether this is a set phrase,

  • or an entirely different meaning for the standalone word seh.


    • Though I find lakka seh for like saying a plausible semantic broadening to "acting like" (it's like they're saying for acting as if²).




Possibility as a function word



Janus Bahs Jacquet, one of our resident linguists, in a comment, made an interesting connection to generic complement markers in Japanese:




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican.



It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc.



Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.




I'm in no better position than Janus to corroborate this theory, but from the few examples I've examined today, it feels plausible.





¹ Patwah here being patois for Patois



² I didn't look this up, but if I had to guess, galanga is derived from "going along", "proceeding". Thus, galanga lakka say would be "going along like they're saying", i.e. proceeding as if. But again, this is speculation.






share|improve this answer



















  • 2




    I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    Dec 3 at 15:33






  • 1




    Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:37






  • 2




    In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • @Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
    – Dan Bron
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • "Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
    – Ben
    Dec 4 at 9:22















up vote
18
down vote










up vote
18
down vote









The meaning of seh



In Jamaican Patois at least, seh is a cognate of say.



For example, from JamaicanPatwah.com¹:




seh



English Translation
say



Definition
Saying



Example Sentences

Patois: Wah yuh seh?

English: What are you saying?




and from The Poetry Archive:




Nouns



In Creole, where a noun refers to a class of persons or things, as such, or where it is preceded by a number or some other expression of quantity, nothing is added to indicate plurality.



Dem seh / wi commandeer cyar
They say / said we commandeered cars

('Di Great Insohreckshan', Linton Kwesi Johnson)




So in your example, Mi know seh dem nuh like mi, I'd read this as I know they say they don't like me, rather than your reading of that.



Etymology



Linguists have used the term "lexifier" for the relationship between English and Jamaican patois or creole: that is, English supplies most of the words to the patois. Then they're subject to the phonology of that dialect.



Patois does interesting things with word-ending vowels, but I'm not versed enough to name the specific phonological alterations that produce "seh" from "say"; sufficed to say, the source (etymology) of "seh" in patois is "say" in English.



But, just like any other word, seh has evolved organically over time, and diverged from straight English say. Below, I'll review a couple of these extensions.



In set phrases



In certain set phrases, it has a different meaning, but that's more a function of the idiomacity of the phrase (taken as a whole) as opposed to the word.



From TheCultureTrip.com, 15 Jamaican Patois Phrases To Know:




Weh yuh ah seh



Literally translated as what are you saying, but actually meaning how are you doing. For example: Weh yuh a seh? Mi deh try call yuh means, How are you doing? I’ve been trying to call you.




To make the difference between a standalone word and a set phrase clearer, consider an AmE example: you could say "bucket" has a different definition in the phrase "kick the bucket", but that's misleading: it's the set phrase which has a specific meaning, and should be treated as a indivisible word (technically a lexeme).



Other



Here's a case where seh apparently has an entirely different meaning, and I don't know how to class it.



From Paxton Belcher-Timme, Rhetoric of Reggae, Patois: the language of Jamaica (December 1, 2009):




Patois: cooh deh, dem ah galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten

English: Look at that! They are behaving as if they do not have anything.



Cooh Deh! = Look at that!
Deh ah = They are
Galanga lakka she = Behaving as if




Here, note the example sentence has Galanga lakka seh, but the "English translation" has Galanga lakka she.



So I don't know:




  • which is the typo (meaning, this might not be discussing the word seh at all, but rather she),

  • or whether this is a set phrase,

  • or an entirely different meaning for the standalone word seh.


    • Though I find lakka seh for like saying a plausible semantic broadening to "acting like" (it's like they're saying for acting as if²).




Possibility as a function word



Janus Bahs Jacquet, one of our resident linguists, in a comment, made an interesting connection to generic complement markers in Japanese:




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican.



It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc.



Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.




I'm in no better position than Janus to corroborate this theory, but from the few examples I've examined today, it feels plausible.





¹ Patwah here being patois for Patois



² I didn't look this up, but if I had to guess, galanga is derived from "going along", "proceeding". Thus, galanga lakka say would be "going along like they're saying", i.e. proceeding as if. But again, this is speculation.






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The meaning of seh



In Jamaican Patois at least, seh is a cognate of say.



For example, from JamaicanPatwah.com¹:




seh



English Translation
say



Definition
Saying



Example Sentences

Patois: Wah yuh seh?

English: What are you saying?




and from The Poetry Archive:




Nouns



In Creole, where a noun refers to a class of persons or things, as such, or where it is preceded by a number or some other expression of quantity, nothing is added to indicate plurality.



Dem seh / wi commandeer cyar
They say / said we commandeered cars

('Di Great Insohreckshan', Linton Kwesi Johnson)




So in your example, Mi know seh dem nuh like mi, I'd read this as I know they say they don't like me, rather than your reading of that.



Etymology



Linguists have used the term "lexifier" for the relationship between English and Jamaican patois or creole: that is, English supplies most of the words to the patois. Then they're subject to the phonology of that dialect.



Patois does interesting things with word-ending vowels, but I'm not versed enough to name the specific phonological alterations that produce "seh" from "say"; sufficed to say, the source (etymology) of "seh" in patois is "say" in English.



But, just like any other word, seh has evolved organically over time, and diverged from straight English say. Below, I'll review a couple of these extensions.



In set phrases



In certain set phrases, it has a different meaning, but that's more a function of the idiomacity of the phrase (taken as a whole) as opposed to the word.



From TheCultureTrip.com, 15 Jamaican Patois Phrases To Know:




Weh yuh ah seh



Literally translated as what are you saying, but actually meaning how are you doing. For example: Weh yuh a seh? Mi deh try call yuh means, How are you doing? I’ve been trying to call you.




To make the difference between a standalone word and a set phrase clearer, consider an AmE example: you could say "bucket" has a different definition in the phrase "kick the bucket", but that's misleading: it's the set phrase which has a specific meaning, and should be treated as a indivisible word (technically a lexeme).



Other



Here's a case where seh apparently has an entirely different meaning, and I don't know how to class it.



From Paxton Belcher-Timme, Rhetoric of Reggae, Patois: the language of Jamaica (December 1, 2009):




Patois: cooh deh, dem ah galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten

English: Look at that! They are behaving as if they do not have anything.



Cooh Deh! = Look at that!
Deh ah = They are
Galanga lakka she = Behaving as if




Here, note the example sentence has Galanga lakka seh, but the "English translation" has Galanga lakka she.



So I don't know:




  • which is the typo (meaning, this might not be discussing the word seh at all, but rather she),

  • or whether this is a set phrase,

  • or an entirely different meaning for the standalone word seh.


    • Though I find lakka seh for like saying a plausible semantic broadening to "acting like" (it's like they're saying for acting as if²).




Possibility as a function word



Janus Bahs Jacquet, one of our resident linguists, in a comment, made an interesting connection to generic complement markers in Japanese:




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican.



It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc.



Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.




I'm in no better position than Janus to corroborate this theory, but from the few examples I've examined today, it feels plausible.





¹ Patwah here being patois for Patois



² I didn't look this up, but if I had to guess, galanga is derived from "going along", "proceeding". Thus, galanga lakka say would be "going along like they're saying", i.e. proceeding as if. But again, this is speculation.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Dec 3 at 18:25

























answered Dec 3 at 14:10









Dan Bron

25.9k1186121




25.9k1186121








  • 2




    I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    Dec 3 at 15:33






  • 1




    Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:37






  • 2




    In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • @Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
    – Dan Bron
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • "Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
    – Ben
    Dec 4 at 9:22
















  • 2




    I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
    – Janus Bahs Jacquet
    Dec 3 at 15:33






  • 1




    Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:37






  • 2




    In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
    – Michaelyus
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • @Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
    – Dan Bron
    Dec 3 at 18:41










  • "Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
    – Ben
    Dec 4 at 9:22










2




2




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Dec 3 at 15:33




I have nothing really to back it up, but it seems likely to me that ‘say’ has been reinterpreted as a generic marker of certain types of complement clause in Jamaican. It ‘feels’ similar to how the marker と to functions in Japanese: its primary use is to mark direct speech, but it’s also used for things that can sort of be loosely compared to direct speech, such as the objects of sense and impression verbs, loose comparisons (act like, be like, look like), etc. Assuming that seh is the right word in the last example, I think that and the one in the question are actually the same usage.
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
Dec 3 at 15:33




1




1




Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
– Michaelyus
Dec 3 at 18:37




Related: The Complementizer say in Nigerian Pidgin English – Traces of Language-internal Processes or Areal Features?
– Michaelyus
Dec 3 at 18:37




2




2




In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
– Michaelyus
Dec 3 at 18:41




In this Patwa grammar guide, point 8.6 notes that se is a complementizer "after the psychologically-related verb-types of speech, thought, emotion or perception", and that it cannot co-occur with the verb se "to say".
– Michaelyus
Dec 3 at 18:41












@Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
– Dan Bron
Dec 3 at 18:41




@Michaelyus Niiiice! Thank you! I’ll edit this in later today. Great stuff, thank you for finding it an bringing it to us.
– Dan Bron
Dec 3 at 18:41












"Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
– Ben
Dec 4 at 9:22






"Say" in English is also used as "for example" in the sense "[one might] say", so "galang lakka seh dem nuh ha nutten" -> "Going along like, one might say, they don't have anything".
– Ben
Dec 4 at 9:22














up vote
7
down vote













Seh means 'is the case' or 'that', as well as being a way to say 'say'. Hence, "galang lakka seh" = behaving as if X is the case, and "me know seh" = I know that this is the case.




  • Native Patois speaker






share|improve this answer





















  • fascinating stuff !
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:49















up vote
7
down vote













Seh means 'is the case' or 'that', as well as being a way to say 'say'. Hence, "galang lakka seh" = behaving as if X is the case, and "me know seh" = I know that this is the case.




  • Native Patois speaker






share|improve this answer





















  • fascinating stuff !
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:49













up vote
7
down vote










up vote
7
down vote









Seh means 'is the case' or 'that', as well as being a way to say 'say'. Hence, "galang lakka seh" = behaving as if X is the case, and "me know seh" = I know that this is the case.




  • Native Patois speaker






share|improve this answer












Seh means 'is the case' or 'that', as well as being a way to say 'say'. Hence, "galang lakka seh" = behaving as if X is the case, and "me know seh" = I know that this is the case.




  • Native Patois speaker







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Dec 4 at 6:05









RukiyaMeria

712




712












  • fascinating stuff !
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:49


















  • fascinating stuff !
    – Fattie
    Dec 4 at 8:49
















fascinating stuff !
– Fattie
Dec 4 at 8:49




fascinating stuff !
– Fattie
Dec 4 at 8:49


















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