How acceptable is it to openly compare team member performances
I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."
Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?
management team
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show 4 more comments
I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."
Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?
management team
13
Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
46
I had - I like that part :)
– wscourge
16 hours ago
6
"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".
– Abigail
14 hours ago
5
@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked
– Victor S
11 hours ago
2
Yes, it's normal to compare/rank but I think it's also fair to point out that there's a difference between ranking behind closed doors versus openly and publicly discussing comparisons.
– dwizum
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."
Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?
management team
I had this manager that frequently brought up how team members performed compared to each other during one-on-ones or performance reviews. E.g. "A could do this task in half an hour you took three hours on" or "I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already."
Now the tone on the examples aside how acceptable is it to bring up other team members while discussing performance?
management team
management team
asked 23 hours ago
Victor SVictor S
3,4491629
3,4491629
13
Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
46
I had - I like that part :)
– wscourge
16 hours ago
6
"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".
– Abigail
14 hours ago
5
@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked
– Victor S
11 hours ago
2
Yes, it's normal to compare/rank but I think it's also fair to point out that there's a difference between ranking behind closed doors versus openly and publicly discussing comparisons.
– dwizum
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
13
Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
46
I had - I like that part :)
– wscourge
16 hours ago
6
"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".
– Abigail
14 hours ago
5
@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked
– Victor S
11 hours ago
2
Yes, it's normal to compare/rank but I think it's also fair to point out that there's a difference between ranking behind closed doors versus openly and publicly discussing comparisons.
– dwizum
11 hours ago
13
13
Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
46
46
I had - I like that part :)
– wscourge
16 hours ago
I had - I like that part :)
– wscourge
16 hours ago
6
6
"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".
– Abigail
14 hours ago
"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".
– Abigail
14 hours ago
5
5
@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked
– Victor S
11 hours ago
@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked
– Victor S
11 hours ago
2
2
Yes, it's normal to compare/rank but I think it's also fair to point out that there's a difference between ranking behind closed doors versus openly and publicly discussing comparisons.
– dwizum
11 hours ago
Yes, it's normal to compare/rank but I think it's also fair to point out that there's a difference between ranking behind closed doors versus openly and publicly discussing comparisons.
– dwizum
11 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
9 Answers
9
active
oldest
votes
It's not.
If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.
It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.
Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.
3
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
30
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
2
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
2
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
1
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.
I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.
58
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
1
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
5
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
2
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
1
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.
Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.
Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.
Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.
However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.
Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.
12
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
8
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
2
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
1
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
add a comment |
I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.
Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?
My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.
On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.
I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
add a comment |
There are some good answers already, but they each seem to capture only part of what is quite a complex answer.
There are many reasons why it might not be a good idea to directly compare staff members in a one-to-one performance review:
- An employee's performance should be judged against the expectations that have been set for them, not anyone else, which will vary with their experience, salary, goals, etc.
- Good team members should not be punished because another team member is outstanding.
- Different team members bring different (ideally complementary) skills and are probably set different objectives.
- Setting team members against one another is likely to foster a vindictive atmosphere.
- Whatever metric is used for the comparison (e.g. time taken to get work finished) may be "gamed" and become the metric that team members prioritize, at the expense of other considerations (e.g. work quality).
- Restricting the proportion of employees that can get a good rating (however that is measured) is demoralizing and simply not in line with reality.
However, there are also reasons why it can sometimes be a good idea to compare staff directly:
- High-performing staff can be used as examples for others to learn from. "Watch how Alice solves problem X" is easier advice to follow than "do better".
- The actions of other staff are concrete and undeniable, which can be useful for accountability. For example, "You just told me it's not possible to do that work in less than five days, but Bob did that exact same job in three days".
- There is no Platonic ideal for what a good worker (in whatever job/career) looks like. If I want to employ a software developer, what should I expect from them, and how much should I pay them? The only rational answer is to compare them to others (though to be fair, it might be tactful to be circumspect about making that comparison).
In addition, discussing or comparing to other staff in a one-to-one or performance review can be desirable for other reasons:
- If someone is being considered (or has longer-term ambitions) for a promotion into a leadership or management role, they are going to need to be able to assess other people's performance. Demonstrating how to do that in a one-to-one might be part of a longer-term development strategy for that employee.
- (Anecdote: one of my team once told me he wanted to be a Development Manager in 3-5 years because he wanted "to be able to tell people what to do". I made sure to involve him in the kind of discussions a manager would need to think about, long before he was likely to get that promotion. He no longer works for me, but I can only hope that if he has been promoted since, he has a better understanding of what a manager is and isn't just "telling people what to do"!).
Finally, in response to the inevitable (hysterical) "quit your job!!!" answer, consider how likely it is that management in your next company will be perfect. If a manager telling you "Alice is doing a better job than you, but you're doing better than Bob" is the worst thing that happens at a company, it might still be an OK place to work.
In summary, this is a complex question that resists simple soundbite answers. Depending on context and how it is done, it may be a poor choice on the manager's part, or there may be a good reason for it.
add a comment |
It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.
But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.
add a comment |
There was just an article about the two top engineers at Google and how they complemented each other. They ALWAYS paired together. (Sorry if I get some of this wrong, it's from memory)
The article claimed that they were the prime example of how one great programmer could do the equivalent of 10 normal programmers and together saved the entire company repeatedly solving problems that nobody else could.
It sounded from the article as though one of them generally typed and the other often sat there with his feet up on the desk and thought.
Imagine the effect trying to pit them against each other or force them to identify who did what work so they could promote/adjust pay/fire one or the other... it would be absolutely destructive. It would have ended the company.
So I'd say that if it was acceptable by your company, you should try to correct that or leave. You might stick around and slog through it like BittermanAndy suggests, but it's not a practice that shows any understanding of software development teamwork so be ware.
I suppose that it's also similar to rating your basketball team on baskets only because assists don't score anything--bad juju.
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
add a comment |
In order for it to be acceptable it is necessary (but not enough) that it is a complete and accurate comparison. Which is quite a difficult thing to do. Your case shows how sloppy the comparison is with just a cursory review. It's missing a crucial element : paychecks. A is not under performing if she takes twice the time than B but gets a third of the pay. She might actually deserve a rise.
In general you won't see managers revealing your co-workers salaries. It's even illegal in many places.
Hence you are unlikely to ever see a proper comparison of team members performances. This is not to say that if the comparison was accurate and complete it would be acceptable but I have nothing to add there compared to other answers.
add a comment |
The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.
The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.
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11
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
2
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
|
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9 Answers
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9 Answers
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It's not.
If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.
It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.
Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.
3
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
30
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
2
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
2
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
1
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
It's not.
If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.
It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.
Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.
3
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
30
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
2
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
2
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
1
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
It's not.
If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.
It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.
Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.
It's not.
If I'm evaluating your performance then Bob and Alice have no bearing on the review. Now truthfully I'm human and I may think of comparisons to each other (and to other people I've worked with over the years) but I need to deliver my evaluation about you in as unbiased a form as I can.
It's the same principle that applies when I reprimand you and you bring up Bob and Alice.
Bob and Alice aren't there. It's just the two of us.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 23 hours ago
bruglescobruglesco
1,935527
1,935527
3
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
30
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
2
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
2
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
1
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
30
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
2
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
2
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
1
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
3
3
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
Could you elaborate why you consider a work environment a place for a neutral, individual evaluation rather than one that tries to optimize its productivity by having everyone deliver the best they can (including replacing them, if someone else can even deliver better results)? (I like your statements, I can just see them invite the usual "We're a business, not a charity (or, in this case, free self-improvement service)." response and wonder why that wouldn't apply.)
– O. R. Mapper
17 hours ago
30
30
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
@O.R.Mapper Comparison between things usually requires something measurable. Getting something measurable means metrics. Having metrics mean you will end up with employees good at generating metrics, and not thinking about their work. If you then FIRE employees with low metrics, then the goal of the employees will be to make sure someone else gets lower score than them. That's much easier than actually do consistently excellent work all the time. This is called STACK RANKING. It's very bad. Read up on Microsoft and Steve Balmer.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
2
2
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
Performance metrics in my experience are also not an effective way of comparing employees with each other, rather they are a measure of where they are compared to where they should be.
– JTPenguin
12 hours ago
2
2
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
I think openly comparing performance could be tactless and hurt morale, but I don't see how your statement is at all true. Performance is relative, Bob and Alice are reference points to establish what an employee can be expected to accomplish. How they perform is absolutely salient to a performance review.
– John K
7 hours ago
1
1
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
@JohnK I disagree. If I tell you Alice does better than you at X. You are far less likely to take that constructively than if I say You need to improve at X. Here's how. It's almost always better to be direct concrete and narrow scope as possible.
– bruglesco
6 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.
I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.
58
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
1
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
5
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
2
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
1
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.
I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.
58
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
1
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
5
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
2
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
1
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.
I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.
This is a MAJOR red flag and an indication of toxic management.
I would seriously consider either completely ignoring the fact that this manager is trying to divide and conquer or find another job.
answered 22 hours ago
solarflaresolarflare
5,66721333
5,66721333
58
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
1
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
5
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
2
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
1
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
58
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
1
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
5
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
2
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
1
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
58
58
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence. Most managers think along the same lines, they're just not stupid/tactless enough to say it to the report's face!
– jpatokal
20 hours ago
1
1
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
Thinking is fine, its obviously part of their job to measure performance. But when you use this information in that manner it will have no positive outcome.
– solarflare
20 hours ago
5
5
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
Thank you for adding the mandatory "find another job" answer.
– Chris
17 hours ago
2
2
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
@jpatokal I don't think it really matters if the manager is malicious or stupid since the result is the same in either case.
– vlaz
16 hours ago
1
1
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
@vlaz As an aside, it may matter if you want to try to change the behaviour. A manager doing this maliciously will probably not be convinced to stop doing it; a manager who doesn't realise the harm they're doing can probably be "corrected" with a single, quiet conversation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.
Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.
Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.
Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.
However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.
Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.
12
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
8
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
2
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
1
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
add a comment |
There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.
Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.
Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.
Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.
However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.
Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.
12
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
8
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
2
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
1
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
add a comment |
There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.
Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.
Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.
Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.
However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.
Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.
There is a reasonably well-known practice called stack ranking, where businesses explicitly and intentionally compare employees, in an attempt to get rid of a small percentage of unproductive ones, and reward a small percentage of exceptional ones.
Your manager's statement “I can not give you a better performance review because B delivered much more than you did and I am giving them an average review already” sounds a bit stack-ranking-esque to me, and might indicate that your company is doing that.
Stack ranking is often criticised as being really destructive for morale. That's certainly how I felt in a job many years ago, where I believed I'd put in a year's worth of really good effort and done everything we'd agreed, only to be told I couldn't get a top ranking (and therefore pay rise) because another (very deserving) team member already was, and there was only one top spot allocated on the curve.
Of course, this might not be a considered company-wide approach to performance measurement — I don't think that employees are traditionally told about other specific employees' ranks in a stack ranking system, and it would usually be reasonable to expect discussions in one-on-ones to remain reasonably private. If it is just your manager doing this, and only doing it in private one-on-one conversations, that doesn't sound like particularly good leadership.
However — if the company actually does want to directly compare employee performance, maybe to encourage competition and/or collaboration to drive improvements overall, there's no reason why they can't do that. Sports teams (rowing is an especially good example) have very intense metric-based competition between team members, who also have to very closely collaborate to succeed.
Obviously it's difficult to translate that to knowledge work, where the performance metrics are much vaguer, but the problem of a team with both internal competition and internal collaboration is the same, and some comparison of team members with each other — hopefully in a less negative and divisive way than you've described — could be a part of a successful approach to solving it.
edited 12 hours ago
answered 15 hours ago
Paul D. WaitePaul D. Waite
587411
587411
12
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
8
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
2
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
1
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
add a comment |
12
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
8
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
2
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
1
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
12
12
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
Stack ranking is claimed to be responsible for a “lost decade” at Microsoft.
– gnasher729
15 hours ago
8
8
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
@gnasher729: even stack ranking can't be blamed entirely for Vista.
– Paul D. Waite
15 hours ago
2
2
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
Even outside stack-ranking (which is quite an extreme thing), most places I've worked in did their reviews and then did a 'calibration' exercise where, essentially, teams with more high performers than the average were talked down a bit (and possibly likewise for low performers being talked up?) Thus, this manager may be internally thinking like the upcoming 'calibration meeting' will demand.
– Ralph Bolton
9 hours ago
1
1
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 that was attributed more to the fact that they did it per-team instead of company-wide, so a very good person in an extremely good team would be fired, and the second-worst person in a terrible team would keep their job.
– Robert Grant
8 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
@gnasher729 And also for a "cult-like" culture at Facebook. Link
– code_dredd
6 hours ago
add a comment |
I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.
Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?
My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.
On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.
I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.
Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?
My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.
On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.
I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.
Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?
My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.
On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.
I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.
I second @solarflare's answer, but I'd like to add another reasoning.
Do consider that maybe the only inappropriate aspect is giving names explicitly. Rephrasing to "I can reasonably tell the task you took 3 hours could have been done in 1 hour" or "I cannot give you a better review, because of the standards I follow, which also normalizes every employee's review". Would that sound bad to you?
My point is that I believe comparing team members explicitly is poor ethics, but for all practical purposes, the same message could have been sent without the comparison, which would have been made either way.
On the plus side, you are given the opportunity to dispute the comparisons, saying things such as "A took less time because his task was actually simpler" or "I actually helped B a lot in delivering the tasks that you are attributing to him". Likewise, these answers do lack professionalism, but so does the person evaluating you.
I do believe this is not a reason to find another job, but coaching managers into giving proper feedback is pretty much a HR responsibility, maybe seek the HR department with some constructive suggestions.
edited 10 hours ago
answered 14 hours ago
MefiticoMefitico
1917
1917
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
add a comment |
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
I'm pretty sure throwing your teammates under the bus (yeah, C only took an hour but that's because they did a bad job) is going to be awful for morale.... And then you also have to start talking about what you're paying people (my architect only took an hour, but you pay them 3x what you pay me, so we are both getting an A for dollars/hour), and no company wants you to start comparing how much you make....
– user3067860
11 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
@user3067860 : Hence why I said it's poor practice of the manager to begin with. And even the examples I gave (softer than yours) would be already very poor attitude. But then again, good professionalism may be unsustainable in when dealing with very unprofessional people. And if you are misjudged due to an unfair comparison and you have your change to speak up against it, failing to do so means agreeing to the comparison.
– Mefitico
10 hours ago
add a comment |
There are some good answers already, but they each seem to capture only part of what is quite a complex answer.
There are many reasons why it might not be a good idea to directly compare staff members in a one-to-one performance review:
- An employee's performance should be judged against the expectations that have been set for them, not anyone else, which will vary with their experience, salary, goals, etc.
- Good team members should not be punished because another team member is outstanding.
- Different team members bring different (ideally complementary) skills and are probably set different objectives.
- Setting team members against one another is likely to foster a vindictive atmosphere.
- Whatever metric is used for the comparison (e.g. time taken to get work finished) may be "gamed" and become the metric that team members prioritize, at the expense of other considerations (e.g. work quality).
- Restricting the proportion of employees that can get a good rating (however that is measured) is demoralizing and simply not in line with reality.
However, there are also reasons why it can sometimes be a good idea to compare staff directly:
- High-performing staff can be used as examples for others to learn from. "Watch how Alice solves problem X" is easier advice to follow than "do better".
- The actions of other staff are concrete and undeniable, which can be useful for accountability. For example, "You just told me it's not possible to do that work in less than five days, but Bob did that exact same job in three days".
- There is no Platonic ideal for what a good worker (in whatever job/career) looks like. If I want to employ a software developer, what should I expect from them, and how much should I pay them? The only rational answer is to compare them to others (though to be fair, it might be tactful to be circumspect about making that comparison).
In addition, discussing or comparing to other staff in a one-to-one or performance review can be desirable for other reasons:
- If someone is being considered (or has longer-term ambitions) for a promotion into a leadership or management role, they are going to need to be able to assess other people's performance. Demonstrating how to do that in a one-to-one might be part of a longer-term development strategy for that employee.
- (Anecdote: one of my team once told me he wanted to be a Development Manager in 3-5 years because he wanted "to be able to tell people what to do". I made sure to involve him in the kind of discussions a manager would need to think about, long before he was likely to get that promotion. He no longer works for me, but I can only hope that if he has been promoted since, he has a better understanding of what a manager is and isn't just "telling people what to do"!).
Finally, in response to the inevitable (hysterical) "quit your job!!!" answer, consider how likely it is that management in your next company will be perfect. If a manager telling you "Alice is doing a better job than you, but you're doing better than Bob" is the worst thing that happens at a company, it might still be an OK place to work.
In summary, this is a complex question that resists simple soundbite answers. Depending on context and how it is done, it may be a poor choice on the manager's part, or there may be a good reason for it.
add a comment |
There are some good answers already, but they each seem to capture only part of what is quite a complex answer.
There are many reasons why it might not be a good idea to directly compare staff members in a one-to-one performance review:
- An employee's performance should be judged against the expectations that have been set for them, not anyone else, which will vary with their experience, salary, goals, etc.
- Good team members should not be punished because another team member is outstanding.
- Different team members bring different (ideally complementary) skills and are probably set different objectives.
- Setting team members against one another is likely to foster a vindictive atmosphere.
- Whatever metric is used for the comparison (e.g. time taken to get work finished) may be "gamed" and become the metric that team members prioritize, at the expense of other considerations (e.g. work quality).
- Restricting the proportion of employees that can get a good rating (however that is measured) is demoralizing and simply not in line with reality.
However, there are also reasons why it can sometimes be a good idea to compare staff directly:
- High-performing staff can be used as examples for others to learn from. "Watch how Alice solves problem X" is easier advice to follow than "do better".
- The actions of other staff are concrete and undeniable, which can be useful for accountability. For example, "You just told me it's not possible to do that work in less than five days, but Bob did that exact same job in three days".
- There is no Platonic ideal for what a good worker (in whatever job/career) looks like. If I want to employ a software developer, what should I expect from them, and how much should I pay them? The only rational answer is to compare them to others (though to be fair, it might be tactful to be circumspect about making that comparison).
In addition, discussing or comparing to other staff in a one-to-one or performance review can be desirable for other reasons:
- If someone is being considered (or has longer-term ambitions) for a promotion into a leadership or management role, they are going to need to be able to assess other people's performance. Demonstrating how to do that in a one-to-one might be part of a longer-term development strategy for that employee.
- (Anecdote: one of my team once told me he wanted to be a Development Manager in 3-5 years because he wanted "to be able to tell people what to do". I made sure to involve him in the kind of discussions a manager would need to think about, long before he was likely to get that promotion. He no longer works for me, but I can only hope that if he has been promoted since, he has a better understanding of what a manager is and isn't just "telling people what to do"!).
Finally, in response to the inevitable (hysterical) "quit your job!!!" answer, consider how likely it is that management in your next company will be perfect. If a manager telling you "Alice is doing a better job than you, but you're doing better than Bob" is the worst thing that happens at a company, it might still be an OK place to work.
In summary, this is a complex question that resists simple soundbite answers. Depending on context and how it is done, it may be a poor choice on the manager's part, or there may be a good reason for it.
add a comment |
There are some good answers already, but they each seem to capture only part of what is quite a complex answer.
There are many reasons why it might not be a good idea to directly compare staff members in a one-to-one performance review:
- An employee's performance should be judged against the expectations that have been set for them, not anyone else, which will vary with their experience, salary, goals, etc.
- Good team members should not be punished because another team member is outstanding.
- Different team members bring different (ideally complementary) skills and are probably set different objectives.
- Setting team members against one another is likely to foster a vindictive atmosphere.
- Whatever metric is used for the comparison (e.g. time taken to get work finished) may be "gamed" and become the metric that team members prioritize, at the expense of other considerations (e.g. work quality).
- Restricting the proportion of employees that can get a good rating (however that is measured) is demoralizing and simply not in line with reality.
However, there are also reasons why it can sometimes be a good idea to compare staff directly:
- High-performing staff can be used as examples for others to learn from. "Watch how Alice solves problem X" is easier advice to follow than "do better".
- The actions of other staff are concrete and undeniable, which can be useful for accountability. For example, "You just told me it's not possible to do that work in less than five days, but Bob did that exact same job in three days".
- There is no Platonic ideal for what a good worker (in whatever job/career) looks like. If I want to employ a software developer, what should I expect from them, and how much should I pay them? The only rational answer is to compare them to others (though to be fair, it might be tactful to be circumspect about making that comparison).
In addition, discussing or comparing to other staff in a one-to-one or performance review can be desirable for other reasons:
- If someone is being considered (or has longer-term ambitions) for a promotion into a leadership or management role, they are going to need to be able to assess other people's performance. Demonstrating how to do that in a one-to-one might be part of a longer-term development strategy for that employee.
- (Anecdote: one of my team once told me he wanted to be a Development Manager in 3-5 years because he wanted "to be able to tell people what to do". I made sure to involve him in the kind of discussions a manager would need to think about, long before he was likely to get that promotion. He no longer works for me, but I can only hope that if he has been promoted since, he has a better understanding of what a manager is and isn't just "telling people what to do"!).
Finally, in response to the inevitable (hysterical) "quit your job!!!" answer, consider how likely it is that management in your next company will be perfect. If a manager telling you "Alice is doing a better job than you, but you're doing better than Bob" is the worst thing that happens at a company, it might still be an OK place to work.
In summary, this is a complex question that resists simple soundbite answers. Depending on context and how it is done, it may be a poor choice on the manager's part, or there may be a good reason for it.
There are some good answers already, but they each seem to capture only part of what is quite a complex answer.
There are many reasons why it might not be a good idea to directly compare staff members in a one-to-one performance review:
- An employee's performance should be judged against the expectations that have been set for them, not anyone else, which will vary with their experience, salary, goals, etc.
- Good team members should not be punished because another team member is outstanding.
- Different team members bring different (ideally complementary) skills and are probably set different objectives.
- Setting team members against one another is likely to foster a vindictive atmosphere.
- Whatever metric is used for the comparison (e.g. time taken to get work finished) may be "gamed" and become the metric that team members prioritize, at the expense of other considerations (e.g. work quality).
- Restricting the proportion of employees that can get a good rating (however that is measured) is demoralizing and simply not in line with reality.
However, there are also reasons why it can sometimes be a good idea to compare staff directly:
- High-performing staff can be used as examples for others to learn from. "Watch how Alice solves problem X" is easier advice to follow than "do better".
- The actions of other staff are concrete and undeniable, which can be useful for accountability. For example, "You just told me it's not possible to do that work in less than five days, but Bob did that exact same job in three days".
- There is no Platonic ideal for what a good worker (in whatever job/career) looks like. If I want to employ a software developer, what should I expect from them, and how much should I pay them? The only rational answer is to compare them to others (though to be fair, it might be tactful to be circumspect about making that comparison).
In addition, discussing or comparing to other staff in a one-to-one or performance review can be desirable for other reasons:
- If someone is being considered (or has longer-term ambitions) for a promotion into a leadership or management role, they are going to need to be able to assess other people's performance. Demonstrating how to do that in a one-to-one might be part of a longer-term development strategy for that employee.
- (Anecdote: one of my team once told me he wanted to be a Development Manager in 3-5 years because he wanted "to be able to tell people what to do". I made sure to involve him in the kind of discussions a manager would need to think about, long before he was likely to get that promotion. He no longer works for me, but I can only hope that if he has been promoted since, he has a better understanding of what a manager is and isn't just "telling people what to do"!).
Finally, in response to the inevitable (hysterical) "quit your job!!!" answer, consider how likely it is that management in your next company will be perfect. If a manager telling you "Alice is doing a better job than you, but you're doing better than Bob" is the worst thing that happens at a company, it might still be an OK place to work.
In summary, this is a complex question that resists simple soundbite answers. Depending on context and how it is done, it may be a poor choice on the manager's part, or there may be a good reason for it.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
BittermanAndyBittermanAndy
2,433213
2,433213
add a comment |
add a comment |
It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.
But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.
add a comment |
It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.
But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.
add a comment |
It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.
But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.
It might be a good thing if it is presented in a positive way : two employers ago I have been working in a project team and every week somebody was elected by the project manager as the "employee of the week", meaning the person who has done something exceptionally good. There have been cases where two people had done something exceptionally good and the project manager exceptionally elected both.
But saying something negative in public is a show-stopper: such a thing should never happen.
answered 15 hours ago
DominiqueDominique
967311
967311
add a comment |
add a comment |
There was just an article about the two top engineers at Google and how they complemented each other. They ALWAYS paired together. (Sorry if I get some of this wrong, it's from memory)
The article claimed that they were the prime example of how one great programmer could do the equivalent of 10 normal programmers and together saved the entire company repeatedly solving problems that nobody else could.
It sounded from the article as though one of them generally typed and the other often sat there with his feet up on the desk and thought.
Imagine the effect trying to pit them against each other or force them to identify who did what work so they could promote/adjust pay/fire one or the other... it would be absolutely destructive. It would have ended the company.
So I'd say that if it was acceptable by your company, you should try to correct that or leave. You might stick around and slog through it like BittermanAndy suggests, but it's not a practice that shows any understanding of software development teamwork so be ware.
I suppose that it's also similar to rating your basketball team on baskets only because assists don't score anything--bad juju.
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
add a comment |
There was just an article about the two top engineers at Google and how they complemented each other. They ALWAYS paired together. (Sorry if I get some of this wrong, it's from memory)
The article claimed that they were the prime example of how one great programmer could do the equivalent of 10 normal programmers and together saved the entire company repeatedly solving problems that nobody else could.
It sounded from the article as though one of them generally typed and the other often sat there with his feet up on the desk and thought.
Imagine the effect trying to pit them against each other or force them to identify who did what work so they could promote/adjust pay/fire one or the other... it would be absolutely destructive. It would have ended the company.
So I'd say that if it was acceptable by your company, you should try to correct that or leave. You might stick around and slog through it like BittermanAndy suggests, but it's not a practice that shows any understanding of software development teamwork so be ware.
I suppose that it's also similar to rating your basketball team on baskets only because assists don't score anything--bad juju.
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
add a comment |
There was just an article about the two top engineers at Google and how they complemented each other. They ALWAYS paired together. (Sorry if I get some of this wrong, it's from memory)
The article claimed that they were the prime example of how one great programmer could do the equivalent of 10 normal programmers and together saved the entire company repeatedly solving problems that nobody else could.
It sounded from the article as though one of them generally typed and the other often sat there with his feet up on the desk and thought.
Imagine the effect trying to pit them against each other or force them to identify who did what work so they could promote/adjust pay/fire one or the other... it would be absolutely destructive. It would have ended the company.
So I'd say that if it was acceptable by your company, you should try to correct that or leave. You might stick around and slog through it like BittermanAndy suggests, but it's not a practice that shows any understanding of software development teamwork so be ware.
I suppose that it's also similar to rating your basketball team on baskets only because assists don't score anything--bad juju.
There was just an article about the two top engineers at Google and how they complemented each other. They ALWAYS paired together. (Sorry if I get some of this wrong, it's from memory)
The article claimed that they were the prime example of how one great programmer could do the equivalent of 10 normal programmers and together saved the entire company repeatedly solving problems that nobody else could.
It sounded from the article as though one of them generally typed and the other often sat there with his feet up on the desk and thought.
Imagine the effect trying to pit them against each other or force them to identify who did what work so they could promote/adjust pay/fire one or the other... it would be absolutely destructive. It would have ended the company.
So I'd say that if it was acceptable by your company, you should try to correct that or leave. You might stick around and slog through it like BittermanAndy suggests, but it's not a practice that shows any understanding of software development teamwork so be ware.
I suppose that it's also similar to rating your basketball team on baskets only because assists don't score anything--bad juju.
answered 4 hours ago
Bill KBill K
1,11069
1,11069
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
add a comment |
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
I really enjoyed reading this answer and it offered good perspective...are you able to link the article? I'd enjoy reading about it!
– Jessica Tiberio
3 hours ago
add a comment |
In order for it to be acceptable it is necessary (but not enough) that it is a complete and accurate comparison. Which is quite a difficult thing to do. Your case shows how sloppy the comparison is with just a cursory review. It's missing a crucial element : paychecks. A is not under performing if she takes twice the time than B but gets a third of the pay. She might actually deserve a rise.
In general you won't see managers revealing your co-workers salaries. It's even illegal in many places.
Hence you are unlikely to ever see a proper comparison of team members performances. This is not to say that if the comparison was accurate and complete it would be acceptable but I have nothing to add there compared to other answers.
add a comment |
In order for it to be acceptable it is necessary (but not enough) that it is a complete and accurate comparison. Which is quite a difficult thing to do. Your case shows how sloppy the comparison is with just a cursory review. It's missing a crucial element : paychecks. A is not under performing if she takes twice the time than B but gets a third of the pay. She might actually deserve a rise.
In general you won't see managers revealing your co-workers salaries. It's even illegal in many places.
Hence you are unlikely to ever see a proper comparison of team members performances. This is not to say that if the comparison was accurate and complete it would be acceptable but I have nothing to add there compared to other answers.
add a comment |
In order for it to be acceptable it is necessary (but not enough) that it is a complete and accurate comparison. Which is quite a difficult thing to do. Your case shows how sloppy the comparison is with just a cursory review. It's missing a crucial element : paychecks. A is not under performing if she takes twice the time than B but gets a third of the pay. She might actually deserve a rise.
In general you won't see managers revealing your co-workers salaries. It's even illegal in many places.
Hence you are unlikely to ever see a proper comparison of team members performances. This is not to say that if the comparison was accurate and complete it would be acceptable but I have nothing to add there compared to other answers.
In order for it to be acceptable it is necessary (but not enough) that it is a complete and accurate comparison. Which is quite a difficult thing to do. Your case shows how sloppy the comparison is with just a cursory review. It's missing a crucial element : paychecks. A is not under performing if she takes twice the time than B but gets a third of the pay. She might actually deserve a rise.
In general you won't see managers revealing your co-workers salaries. It's even illegal in many places.
Hence you are unlikely to ever see a proper comparison of team members performances. This is not to say that if the comparison was accurate and complete it would be acceptable but I have nothing to add there compared to other answers.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
Jose Antonio Dura OlmosJose Antonio Dura Olmos
35917
35917
add a comment |
add a comment |
The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.
The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.
New contributor
Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
11
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
2
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.
The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.
New contributor
Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
11
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
2
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.
The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.
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The act of comparing coworkers is entirely valid and a useful tool. The visceral negative reactions you see here are somewhat delusional (I expect almost everyone does this in some way/shape/form). The issue is not that you're being compared to your peers, but that you aren't being compared against the expectations that (should) have been set with you. For example, working on commission is an example where your expectations and compensation is tied explicitly to your performance relative to your peers.
The only way that performance reviews go well is if you have a regular expectations/goal setting cadence. Then you get to be reviewed against those goals, which may or may not inlcude comparisons to your coworkers.
New contributor
Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 13 hours ago
Adam MartinAdam Martin
1371
1371
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Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Adam Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
11
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
2
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
11
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
2
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
11
11
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
They're not "delusional", they're based on fact and experience. Sales is pretty much the only place that open competition of this form is expected, and that's an industry which already attracts a very specific kind of character and has success at least partially driven by luck/market conditions. If you were to apply your approach to a software development team you'd find yourself with an abysmal environment very, very quickly. Real-world history confirms that this is so (as discussed in some of the other answers).
– Lightness Races in Orbit
12 hours ago
2
2
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@LightnessRacesinOrbit just to add onto that - a company I worked for didn't exactly do this but would regularly praise one team or another for accomplishments. This is fine but the problem was the regularity - some teams wouldn't get a mention simply because they hadn't done when "praise time" came around, they've been stuck fixing bugs or designing/developing something that would come in soon. Yet people who recently did a successful release would get a mention. It was pretty annoying for those involved even if it's not quite the level of constant comparison. So, yes - that would be worse.
– vlaz
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
@vlaz: Yep have experienced this too. It's very demoralising. I almost quit over it. Ironically the same problem exists in reverse on occasion: praising the least skilled workers as a means of encouraging them, which sounds great on paper but if you forget to ever praise those actually accomplishing things in the meantime then you're risking disenfranchising your best workers.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
11 hours ago
1
1
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
@AdamMartin That part is certainly a valid observation.
– Lightness Races in Orbit
9 hours ago
2
2
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
I'm surprised this has so many downvotes. As an answer I think it's incomplete, but it's not wrong.
– BittermanAndy
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
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13
Speaking as someone on the ultra high end performance of 3 months of public metric reporting... I personally found it hilarious, but it must be super depressing for others. Since I'm an automation programmer working in a call center doing e-mails, my output was about a factor of 10 higher than the next guy. The bar charts were completely meaningless because you can only see one bar... my output would be higher than entire teams of people (6-8 member teams). Manager was smart enough to stop, but I still kept going at that rate.
– Nelson
16 hours ago
46
I had - I like that part :)
– wscourge
16 hours ago
6
"We're here to discuss my performance, not of person X".
– Abigail
14 hours ago
5
@Fattie how is it constructive to list your employees from best to worst if they are all delivering well above the market standard? the only way I can see that help is if you have layoffs coming and want to make sure you keep the better ones but why would that involve anyone being compared? either them or their coworkers are getting laid off and they dont have to know how they are ranked
– Victor S
11 hours ago
2
Yes, it's normal to compare/rank but I think it's also fair to point out that there's a difference between ranking behind closed doors versus openly and publicly discussing comparisons.
– dwizum
11 hours ago