Do short waves pass through or reflect off concrete buildings?











up vote
5
down vote

favorite
1












I live in Moscow, Russia and use DIY indoor magnetic loop antennas to listen amateur radio. Recently I received quite strong signals from Italy (20m, IV3UTV) and Slovenia (40m, S51CK), both operators are ~2000 km from me. One thing I don't quite understand is that both countries are south-west from me, and the antenna is hanging on a window that faces east.



I see two possibilities. There is a tall concrete building not far away that probably could reflect those signals. Or maybe short waves can just pass through my building? What explanation is more plausible?



(I tried to find the answer on my question using Google. Everyone is telling on how short waves reflect off the ionosphere, but I didn't manage to find the information on how they behave when they meet a concrete building.)










share|improve this question









New contributor




Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
























    up vote
    5
    down vote

    favorite
    1












    I live in Moscow, Russia and use DIY indoor magnetic loop antennas to listen amateur radio. Recently I received quite strong signals from Italy (20m, IV3UTV) and Slovenia (40m, S51CK), both operators are ~2000 km from me. One thing I don't quite understand is that both countries are south-west from me, and the antenna is hanging on a window that faces east.



    I see two possibilities. There is a tall concrete building not far away that probably could reflect those signals. Or maybe short waves can just pass through my building? What explanation is more plausible?



    (I tried to find the answer on my question using Google. Everyone is telling on how short waves reflect off the ionosphere, but I didn't manage to find the information on how they behave when they meet a concrete building.)










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      up vote
      5
      down vote

      favorite
      1









      up vote
      5
      down vote

      favorite
      1






      1





      I live in Moscow, Russia and use DIY indoor magnetic loop antennas to listen amateur radio. Recently I received quite strong signals from Italy (20m, IV3UTV) and Slovenia (40m, S51CK), both operators are ~2000 km from me. One thing I don't quite understand is that both countries are south-west from me, and the antenna is hanging on a window that faces east.



      I see two possibilities. There is a tall concrete building not far away that probably could reflect those signals. Or maybe short waves can just pass through my building? What explanation is more plausible?



      (I tried to find the answer on my question using Google. Everyone is telling on how short waves reflect off the ionosphere, but I didn't manage to find the information on how they behave when they meet a concrete building.)










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      I live in Moscow, Russia and use DIY indoor magnetic loop antennas to listen amateur radio. Recently I received quite strong signals from Italy (20m, IV3UTV) and Slovenia (40m, S51CK), both operators are ~2000 km from me. One thing I don't quite understand is that both countries are south-west from me, and the antenna is hanging on a window that faces east.



      I see two possibilities. There is a tall concrete building not far away that probably could reflect those signals. Or maybe short waves can just pass through my building? What explanation is more plausible?



      (I tried to find the answer on my question using Google. Everyone is telling on how short waves reflect off the ionosphere, but I didn't manage to find the information on how they behave when they meet a concrete building.)







      hf propagation magnetic-loop






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Nov 13 at 15:28









      Kevin Reid AG6YO

      15k32865




      15k32865






      New contributor




      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      asked Nov 13 at 9:18









      Aleksander Alekseev

      1285




      1285




      New contributor




      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      New contributor





      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          7
          down vote



          accepted










          The concrete is relatively transparent to radio waves of such large wavelengths (it attenuates, it doesn't reflect). However, steel bars within concrete typically convert that concrete to a solid reflector from the perspective of a wave with such a large wavelength.



          Basically, that effect scales: Just as your microwave oven's front door has a metal plate with holes that are too small for microwave radiation to actually pass through, when you scale up from ca 20 cm microwave oven wavelength to 20 m shortwave wavelength, you can scale up your metal bar spacing, too.



          However, your way of thinking "what specifically is it reflected off" isn't 100% right.



          When wavelengths are larger or in the same order of magnitude as obstacles (houses, walls, towers, trees, trucks, trains…), you start noticing that ray optics doesn't really represent the way electromagnetic waves work; you get diffuse effects such as refraction, and with a lot of obstacles, even in the optic model, you get more effects like scattering than specular reflections.






          share|improve this answer





















            Your Answer





            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
            StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
            StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
            });
            });
            }, "mathjax-editing");

            StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
            return StackExchange.using("schematics", function () {
            StackExchange.schematics.init();
            });
            }, "cicuitlab");

            StackExchange.ready(function() {
            var channelOptions = {
            tags: "".split(" "),
            id: "520"
            };
            initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

            StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
            // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
            if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
            StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
            createEditor();
            });
            }
            else {
            createEditor();
            }
            });

            function createEditor() {
            StackExchange.prepareEditor({
            heartbeatType: 'answer',
            convertImagesToLinks: false,
            noModals: true,
            showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
            reputationToPostImages: null,
            bindNavPrevention: true,
            postfix: "",
            imageUploader: {
            brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
            contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
            allowUrls: true
            },
            noCode: true, onDemand: true,
            discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
            ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
            });


            }
            });






            Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










             

            draft saved


            draft discarded


















            StackExchange.ready(
            function () {
            StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fham.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f12235%2fdo-short-waves-pass-through-or-reflect-off-concrete-buildings%23new-answer', 'question_page');
            }
            );

            Post as a guest















            Required, but never shown

























            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes








            1 Answer
            1






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes








            up vote
            7
            down vote



            accepted










            The concrete is relatively transparent to radio waves of such large wavelengths (it attenuates, it doesn't reflect). However, steel bars within concrete typically convert that concrete to a solid reflector from the perspective of a wave with such a large wavelength.



            Basically, that effect scales: Just as your microwave oven's front door has a metal plate with holes that are too small for microwave radiation to actually pass through, when you scale up from ca 20 cm microwave oven wavelength to 20 m shortwave wavelength, you can scale up your metal bar spacing, too.



            However, your way of thinking "what specifically is it reflected off" isn't 100% right.



            When wavelengths are larger or in the same order of magnitude as obstacles (houses, walls, towers, trees, trucks, trains…), you start noticing that ray optics doesn't really represent the way electromagnetic waves work; you get diffuse effects such as refraction, and with a lot of obstacles, even in the optic model, you get more effects like scattering than specular reflections.






            share|improve this answer

























              up vote
              7
              down vote



              accepted










              The concrete is relatively transparent to radio waves of such large wavelengths (it attenuates, it doesn't reflect). However, steel bars within concrete typically convert that concrete to a solid reflector from the perspective of a wave with such a large wavelength.



              Basically, that effect scales: Just as your microwave oven's front door has a metal plate with holes that are too small for microwave radiation to actually pass through, when you scale up from ca 20 cm microwave oven wavelength to 20 m shortwave wavelength, you can scale up your metal bar spacing, too.



              However, your way of thinking "what specifically is it reflected off" isn't 100% right.



              When wavelengths are larger or in the same order of magnitude as obstacles (houses, walls, towers, trees, trucks, trains…), you start noticing that ray optics doesn't really represent the way electromagnetic waves work; you get diffuse effects such as refraction, and with a lot of obstacles, even in the optic model, you get more effects like scattering than specular reflections.






              share|improve this answer























                up vote
                7
                down vote



                accepted







                up vote
                7
                down vote



                accepted






                The concrete is relatively transparent to radio waves of such large wavelengths (it attenuates, it doesn't reflect). However, steel bars within concrete typically convert that concrete to a solid reflector from the perspective of a wave with such a large wavelength.



                Basically, that effect scales: Just as your microwave oven's front door has a metal plate with holes that are too small for microwave radiation to actually pass through, when you scale up from ca 20 cm microwave oven wavelength to 20 m shortwave wavelength, you can scale up your metal bar spacing, too.



                However, your way of thinking "what specifically is it reflected off" isn't 100% right.



                When wavelengths are larger or in the same order of magnitude as obstacles (houses, walls, towers, trees, trucks, trains…), you start noticing that ray optics doesn't really represent the way electromagnetic waves work; you get diffuse effects such as refraction, and with a lot of obstacles, even in the optic model, you get more effects like scattering than specular reflections.






                share|improve this answer












                The concrete is relatively transparent to radio waves of such large wavelengths (it attenuates, it doesn't reflect). However, steel bars within concrete typically convert that concrete to a solid reflector from the perspective of a wave with such a large wavelength.



                Basically, that effect scales: Just as your microwave oven's front door has a metal plate with holes that are too small for microwave radiation to actually pass through, when you scale up from ca 20 cm microwave oven wavelength to 20 m shortwave wavelength, you can scale up your metal bar spacing, too.



                However, your way of thinking "what specifically is it reflected off" isn't 100% right.



                When wavelengths are larger or in the same order of magnitude as obstacles (houses, walls, towers, trees, trucks, trains…), you start noticing that ray optics doesn't really represent the way electromagnetic waves work; you get diffuse effects such as refraction, and with a lot of obstacles, even in the optic model, you get more effects like scattering than specular reflections.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered Nov 13 at 10:59









                Marcus Müller

                6,863829




                6,863829






















                    Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










                     

                    draft saved


                    draft discarded


















                    Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













                    Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                    Aleksander Alekseev is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.















                     


                    draft saved


                    draft discarded














                    StackExchange.ready(
                    function () {
                    StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fham.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f12235%2fdo-short-waves-pass-through-or-reflect-off-concrete-buildings%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                    }
                    );

                    Post as a guest















                    Required, but never shown





















































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown

































                    Required, but never shown














                    Required, but never shown












                    Required, but never shown







                    Required, but never shown







                    Popular posts from this blog

                    Сан-Квентин

                    Алькесар

                    Josef Freinademetz