Using a siddur to Daven from in a seforim store
1
There are many seforim stores that have a minyan for Mincha in the store. If someone were to use a siddur from the store in order to daven with that minyan in a way that there's no perceived damage on the siddur, and nowhere is there a written policy to not use the siddurim for Mincha purposes.
Can a siddur be used Lechatchila?
Can the owner compel him to buy it now?
halacha money choshen-mishpat-civil-law torts-damages
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
|
show 2 more comments
1
There are many seforim stores that have a minyan for Mincha in the store. If someone were to use a siddur from the store in order to daven with that minyan in a way that there's no perceived damage on the siddur, and nowhere is there a written policy to not use the siddurim for Mincha purposes.
Can a siddur be used Lechatchila?
Can the owner compel him to buy it now?
halacha money choshen-mishpat-civil-law torts-damages
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
3
If the owner allows it, what's the question? And if the owner doesn't allow it, what's the question?
– Double AA♦
4 hours ago
@DoubleAA it about where his attitude is unknown
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Do you specifically mean for a Mitzvah or using just about anything, like coming toa tool store to fix your things.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
1
Dude. I asked a serious straightforward question that actually happened to me today. And your just editing it to your own question, and then asking me questions on your question. Next time don't edit my question. It was a legitimate question. @AlBerko
– Moshe
3 hours ago
Here's a problem, you seek a simple answer to a complicated question, and you don't even understand its depth. This is not "ask a rabbi" site, and not facebook to call me dude. So if you seek some respect - please respect the site and its users.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
1
1
There are many seforim stores that have a minyan for Mincha in the store. If someone were to use a siddur from the store in order to daven with that minyan in a way that there's no perceived damage on the siddur, and nowhere is there a written policy to not use the siddurim for Mincha purposes.
Can a siddur be used Lechatchila?
Can the owner compel him to buy it now?
halacha money choshen-mishpat-civil-law torts-damages
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
There are many seforim stores that have a minyan for Mincha in the store. If someone were to use a siddur from the store in order to daven with that minyan in a way that there's no perceived damage on the siddur, and nowhere is there a written policy to not use the siddurim for Mincha purposes.
Can a siddur be used Lechatchila?
Can the owner compel him to buy it now?
halacha money choshen-mishpat-civil-law torts-damages
halacha money choshen-mishpat-civil-law torts-damages
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
edited 5 hours ago
Al Berko
6,2581529
6,2581529
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
asked 7 hours ago
MosheMoshe
45512
45512
3
If the owner allows it, what's the question? And if the owner doesn't allow it, what's the question?
– Double AA♦
4 hours ago
@DoubleAA it about where his attitude is unknown
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Do you specifically mean for a Mitzvah or using just about anything, like coming toa tool store to fix your things.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
1
Dude. I asked a serious straightforward question that actually happened to me today. And your just editing it to your own question, and then asking me questions on your question. Next time don't edit my question. It was a legitimate question. @AlBerko
– Moshe
3 hours ago
Here's a problem, you seek a simple answer to a complicated question, and you don't even understand its depth. This is not "ask a rabbi" site, and not facebook to call me dude. So if you seek some respect - please respect the site and its users.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
3
If the owner allows it, what's the question? And if the owner doesn't allow it, what's the question?
– Double AA♦
4 hours ago
@DoubleAA it about where his attitude is unknown
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Do you specifically mean for a Mitzvah or using just about anything, like coming toa tool store to fix your things.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
1
Dude. I asked a serious straightforward question that actually happened to me today. And your just editing it to your own question, and then asking me questions on your question. Next time don't edit my question. It was a legitimate question. @AlBerko
– Moshe
3 hours ago
Here's a problem, you seek a simple answer to a complicated question, and you don't even understand its depth. This is not "ask a rabbi" site, and not facebook to call me dude. So if you seek some respect - please respect the site and its users.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
3
3
If the owner allows it, what's the question? And if the owner doesn't allow it, what's the question?
– Double AA♦
4 hours ago
If the owner allows it, what's the question? And if the owner doesn't allow it, what's the question?
– Double AA♦
4 hours ago
@DoubleAA it about where his attitude is unknown
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
@DoubleAA it about where his attitude is unknown
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Do you specifically mean for a Mitzvah or using just about anything, like coming toa tool store to fix your things.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Do you specifically mean for a Mitzvah or using just about anything, like coming toa tool store to fix your things.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
1
1
Dude. I asked a serious straightforward question that actually happened to me today. And your just editing it to your own question, and then asking me questions on your question. Next time don't edit my question. It was a legitimate question. @AlBerko
– Moshe
3 hours ago
Dude. I asked a serious straightforward question that actually happened to me today. And your just editing it to your own question, and then asking me questions on your question. Next time don't edit my question. It was a legitimate question. @AlBerko
– Moshe
3 hours ago
Here's a problem, you seek a simple answer to a complicated question, and you don't even understand its depth. This is not "ask a rabbi" site, and not facebook to call me dude. So if you seek some respect - please respect the site and its users.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Here's a problem, you seek a simple answer to a complicated question, and you don't even understand its depth. This is not "ask a rabbi" site, and not facebook to call me dude. So if you seek some respect - please respect the site and its users.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
5
No. One who borrows an item without permission from the owner is conidered a gazlan (שואל שלא מדעת גזלן), and like all cases of stealing, must return the item (והשיב את הגזילה אשר גזל). He is not required to purchase the item or to pay for the usage. If any damage was caused, however, he must pay the full value of the product, not just the amount the item depreciated through the damage.
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
5
No. One who borrows an item without permission from the owner is conidered a gazlan (שואל שלא מדעת גזלן), and like all cases of stealing, must return the item (והשיב את הגזילה אשר גזל). He is not required to purchase the item or to pay for the usage. If any damage was caused, however, he must pay the full value of the product, not just the amount the item depreciated through the damage.
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
5
No. One who borrows an item without permission from the owner is conidered a gazlan (שואל שלא מדעת גזלן), and like all cases of stealing, must return the item (והשיב את הגזילה אשר גזל). He is not required to purchase the item or to pay for the usage. If any damage was caused, however, he must pay the full value of the product, not just the amount the item depreciated through the damage.
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
5
5
5
No. One who borrows an item without permission from the owner is conidered a gazlan (שואל שלא מדעת גזלן), and like all cases of stealing, must return the item (והשיב את הגזילה אשר גזל). He is not required to purchase the item or to pay for the usage. If any damage was caused, however, he must pay the full value of the product, not just the amount the item depreciated through the damage.
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
No. One who borrows an item without permission from the owner is conidered a gazlan (שואל שלא מדעת גזלן), and like all cases of stealing, must return the item (והשיב את הגזילה אשר גזל). He is not required to purchase the item or to pay for the usage. If any damage was caused, however, he must pay the full value of the product, not just the amount the item depreciated through the damage.
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
answered 6 hours ago
chortkov2chortkov2
98417
98417
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
I would add two things - 1. The books ARE for sale and once someone raises them for his USE he acquires them 2. Your rule probably only applies to occasional use, but not repetitive. 3. It might also sound as Midas Sdom - depreciating value in small, under a Prutah steps - think about 10 Miniyanim every day.
– Al Berko
5 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. Not necessarily. Only if he takes it with the intention to acquire it; what if he takes it with the intention to use and return? He’s a שואל שלא מדעת then, as the answerer correctly states. 2. AFAIK there’s no limit to how often one can be a שואל שלא מדעת on the same item, just as there’s no limit to how often one acquired an item he repeatedly steals and returns. 3. is your only entirely valid point here, whether we can be כופה על מדת סדום, particularly in light of the Halacha that we presume people want others to do Mitzvos with their stuff.
– DonielF
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF Here's something I'm constantly stressing - everything depends on סמיכות דעת, i.g. דינא דמלכותא - whatever is accepted in that community/neighborhood/city/country. My points present clear cuts for such סמיכות דעת, for example, I remember my wife coming back from America in the 80s and wondering that you can return just about anything you buy, but in Israel, you can't. Samen here, 1 can be a consideration of distinguishing between a "try before you buy" and a real use.
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@DonielF How about borrowing a hammer, a cordless driver or a stroller? #2 can also be a consideration for calling it a purchase. Think about one who tastes olives or nuts - once or twice is OK but 5-10 times cannot be called "tasting"
– Al Berko
4 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
@AlBerko 1. סמיכות דעת is exactly what I’m stressing as well: the buyer was never סומך דעת to buy the item. 2. In all of those cases, there’s significant damage that accrues over several uses, making the user not only a גזלן but also a מזיק. In the case under discussion, there’s no damage done. Certainly if he uses it enough that the pages tear or crease it would be an issue, but as it stands, it’s just a שואל שלא מדעת.
– DonielF
3 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
3
If the owner allows it, what's the question? And if the owner doesn't allow it, what's the question?
– Double AA♦
4 hours ago
@DoubleAA it about where his attitude is unknown
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
Do you specifically mean for a Mitzvah or using just about anything, like coming toa tool store to fix your things.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago
1
Dude. I asked a serious straightforward question that actually happened to me today. And your just editing it to your own question, and then asking me questions on your question. Next time don't edit my question. It was a legitimate question. @AlBerko
– Moshe
3 hours ago
Here's a problem, you seek a simple answer to a complicated question, and you don't even understand its depth. This is not "ask a rabbi" site, and not facebook to call me dude. So if you seek some respect - please respect the site and its users.
– Al Berko
3 hours ago