Gain in current but not in voltage -transistor “voltage follower” set up












3














Suppose we have the circuit set up as shown in the image. Also suppose that $$V_s=overline{V_s}+v_S$$, where the smal v is for the variable component of the signal which varies much faster than the time constant of both capacitors. After some analisys we get that there's no gain in the variable component of the source voltage, that is, there's unitary gain, however from the equation of a bipolar transistor:
$$i_Eapprox i_c=beta i_s$$
thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to hava a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage? This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?












share|improve this question







New contributor




Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • 2




    Hmmm… Looks like you have a strong misunderstanding of electricity. Anyway, if you connect a load resistor between $V_{textrm{out}}$ and ground it will drain some current. The current that is drained from $V_S$ may be significantly lower, hence the current gain.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago










  • The input impedance and output impedance are very different.
    – Dave Tweed
    2 days ago










  • Moreover, you’d generally want to polarize your transistor’s base with a pair of resistors.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @user2233709 you're right about the misunderstanding of electricity. I don't understand how we can see current and voltage as two distinct things, on the one hand they are, but they are also so strongly connected by Ohm's law that I don't see how
    – Bidon
    2 days ago












  • The way Ohm's law is generally taught to beginners ($V = RI$) assumes that $R$ is constant, which is true for ideal resistors. Other components can change resistance (more general term: impedance) depending on pretty much anything: voltage, temperature, frequency, input on another pin, ...
    – Geier
    2 days ago


















3














Suppose we have the circuit set up as shown in the image. Also suppose that $$V_s=overline{V_s}+v_S$$, where the smal v is for the variable component of the signal which varies much faster than the time constant of both capacitors. After some analisys we get that there's no gain in the variable component of the source voltage, that is, there's unitary gain, however from the equation of a bipolar transistor:
$$i_Eapprox i_c=beta i_s$$
thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to hava a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage? This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?












share|improve this question







New contributor




Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
















  • 2




    Hmmm… Looks like you have a strong misunderstanding of electricity. Anyway, if you connect a load resistor between $V_{textrm{out}}$ and ground it will drain some current. The current that is drained from $V_S$ may be significantly lower, hence the current gain.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago










  • The input impedance and output impedance are very different.
    – Dave Tweed
    2 days ago










  • Moreover, you’d generally want to polarize your transistor’s base with a pair of resistors.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @user2233709 you're right about the misunderstanding of electricity. I don't understand how we can see current and voltage as two distinct things, on the one hand they are, but they are also so strongly connected by Ohm's law that I don't see how
    – Bidon
    2 days ago












  • The way Ohm's law is generally taught to beginners ($V = RI$) assumes that $R$ is constant, which is true for ideal resistors. Other components can change resistance (more general term: impedance) depending on pretty much anything: voltage, temperature, frequency, input on another pin, ...
    – Geier
    2 days ago
















3












3








3







Suppose we have the circuit set up as shown in the image. Also suppose that $$V_s=overline{V_s}+v_S$$, where the smal v is for the variable component of the signal which varies much faster than the time constant of both capacitors. After some analisys we get that there's no gain in the variable component of the source voltage, that is, there's unitary gain, however from the equation of a bipolar transistor:
$$i_Eapprox i_c=beta i_s$$
thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to hava a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage? This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?












share|improve this question







New contributor




Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Suppose we have the circuit set up as shown in the image. Also suppose that $$V_s=overline{V_s}+v_S$$, where the smal v is for the variable component of the signal which varies much faster than the time constant of both capacitors. After some analisys we get that there's no gain in the variable component of the source voltage, that is, there's unitary gain, however from the equation of a bipolar transistor:
$$i_Eapprox i_c=beta i_s$$
thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to hava a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage? This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?









transistors amplifier bipolar






share|improve this question







New contributor




Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor




Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 2 days ago









BidonBidon

183




183




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New contributor





Bidon is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






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Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 2




    Hmmm… Looks like you have a strong misunderstanding of electricity. Anyway, if you connect a load resistor between $V_{textrm{out}}$ and ground it will drain some current. The current that is drained from $V_S$ may be significantly lower, hence the current gain.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago










  • The input impedance and output impedance are very different.
    – Dave Tweed
    2 days ago










  • Moreover, you’d generally want to polarize your transistor’s base with a pair of resistors.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @user2233709 you're right about the misunderstanding of electricity. I don't understand how we can see current and voltage as two distinct things, on the one hand they are, but they are also so strongly connected by Ohm's law that I don't see how
    – Bidon
    2 days ago












  • The way Ohm's law is generally taught to beginners ($V = RI$) assumes that $R$ is constant, which is true for ideal resistors. Other components can change resistance (more general term: impedance) depending on pretty much anything: voltage, temperature, frequency, input on another pin, ...
    – Geier
    2 days ago
















  • 2




    Hmmm… Looks like you have a strong misunderstanding of electricity. Anyway, if you connect a load resistor between $V_{textrm{out}}$ and ground it will drain some current. The current that is drained from $V_S$ may be significantly lower, hence the current gain.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago










  • The input impedance and output impedance are very different.
    – Dave Tweed
    2 days ago










  • Moreover, you’d generally want to polarize your transistor’s base with a pair of resistors.
    – user2233709
    2 days ago






  • 1




    @user2233709 you're right about the misunderstanding of electricity. I don't understand how we can see current and voltage as two distinct things, on the one hand they are, but they are also so strongly connected by Ohm's law that I don't see how
    – Bidon
    2 days ago












  • The way Ohm's law is generally taught to beginners ($V = RI$) assumes that $R$ is constant, which is true for ideal resistors. Other components can change resistance (more general term: impedance) depending on pretty much anything: voltage, temperature, frequency, input on another pin, ...
    – Geier
    2 days ago










2




2




Hmmm… Looks like you have a strong misunderstanding of electricity. Anyway, if you connect a load resistor between $V_{textrm{out}}$ and ground it will drain some current. The current that is drained from $V_S$ may be significantly lower, hence the current gain.
– user2233709
2 days ago




Hmmm… Looks like you have a strong misunderstanding of electricity. Anyway, if you connect a load resistor between $V_{textrm{out}}$ and ground it will drain some current. The current that is drained from $V_S$ may be significantly lower, hence the current gain.
– user2233709
2 days ago












The input impedance and output impedance are very different.
– Dave Tweed
2 days ago




The input impedance and output impedance are very different.
– Dave Tweed
2 days ago












Moreover, you’d generally want to polarize your transistor’s base with a pair of resistors.
– user2233709
2 days ago




Moreover, you’d generally want to polarize your transistor’s base with a pair of resistors.
– user2233709
2 days ago




1




1




@user2233709 you're right about the misunderstanding of electricity. I don't understand how we can see current and voltage as two distinct things, on the one hand they are, but they are also so strongly connected by Ohm's law that I don't see how
– Bidon
2 days ago






@user2233709 you're right about the misunderstanding of electricity. I don't understand how we can see current and voltage as two distinct things, on the one hand they are, but they are also so strongly connected by Ohm's law that I don't see how
– Bidon
2 days ago














The way Ohm's law is generally taught to beginners ($V = RI$) assumes that $R$ is constant, which is true for ideal resistors. Other components can change resistance (more general term: impedance) depending on pretty much anything: voltage, temperature, frequency, input on another pin, ...
– Geier
2 days ago






The way Ohm's law is generally taught to beginners ($V = RI$) assumes that $R$ is constant, which is true for ideal resistors. Other components can change resistance (more general term: impedance) depending on pretty much anything: voltage, temperature, frequency, input on another pin, ...
– Geier
2 days ago












4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















3














Just because 2 quantities are related by an equation does not make them the same. For example, F=ma relatesd force and acceleration by a fixed parameter, mass, but they are still distinct concepts. Ohm's law is not a general rule, Kirchoff's laws are more general and do not imply that current and voltage are thje same: apply them to more complicated circuits than a single resistor and you would see this. Ohm's law has little to do with amplifiers. In the case of a voltage follwer, the output voltage is approximately the same as the input voltage but the available current is higher due to the current gain of the transistor. As already noted, the input resistance of the voltage follower is much higher than the output resistance so Ohm's law does not apply since these resistances are different.






share|improve this answer





















  • I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
    – Bidon
    2 days ago



















3















... thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to have a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage?




By having a change in impedance.



In very crude terms the base current sees a resistance of βRE whereas the output impedance is RE.




This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




No. A transistor isn't a resistor.






share|improve this answer





























    1















    This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




    A transistor is an active device. It modulates the energy of an external power source to mimic the input signal. While Ohm's Law can be use to describe the behavior of certain aspects of active devices in some applications, keep in mind that it was derived to describe the relationships at play in a simple resistor. For anything beyond that you have to pay attention to the details.



    By its definition, a bipolar transistor delivers current gain only. It is the circuit architecture and components around the transistor that translate this into voltage gain- sometimes.






    share|improve this answer





























      1














      Ic =hFE*Ib is then shared by both I(Re) and I(cout).



      However for DC control, I(Cout) can never take all of the current of Ic . As Re serves a purpose to DC pull down the emitter and so R load must always be greater than Re for full swing voltages.



      The result when overloaded, is the cap current pulls up the emitter so Vbe reduces then Ib reduces and the lower level signal cannot be reached.



      Ohm’s Law still works here.
      One simply uses Xc for the cap being much smaller so Rload must be greater than Re for linear operation



      also Vce must be Vce saturation where hFE drops significantly as a another condition.



      the power gain comes from hFE * Rb/Re equivalent loads






      share|improve this answer























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        4 Answers
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        4 Answers
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        active

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        active

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        3














        Just because 2 quantities are related by an equation does not make them the same. For example, F=ma relatesd force and acceleration by a fixed parameter, mass, but they are still distinct concepts. Ohm's law is not a general rule, Kirchoff's laws are more general and do not imply that current and voltage are thje same: apply them to more complicated circuits than a single resistor and you would see this. Ohm's law has little to do with amplifiers. In the case of a voltage follwer, the output voltage is approximately the same as the input voltage but the available current is higher due to the current gain of the transistor. As already noted, the input resistance of the voltage follower is much higher than the output resistance so Ohm's law does not apply since these resistances are different.






        share|improve this answer





















        • I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
          – Bidon
          2 days ago
















        3














        Just because 2 quantities are related by an equation does not make them the same. For example, F=ma relatesd force and acceleration by a fixed parameter, mass, but they are still distinct concepts. Ohm's law is not a general rule, Kirchoff's laws are more general and do not imply that current and voltage are thje same: apply them to more complicated circuits than a single resistor and you would see this. Ohm's law has little to do with amplifiers. In the case of a voltage follwer, the output voltage is approximately the same as the input voltage but the available current is higher due to the current gain of the transistor. As already noted, the input resistance of the voltage follower is much higher than the output resistance so Ohm's law does not apply since these resistances are different.






        share|improve this answer





















        • I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
          – Bidon
          2 days ago














        3












        3








        3






        Just because 2 quantities are related by an equation does not make them the same. For example, F=ma relatesd force and acceleration by a fixed parameter, mass, but they are still distinct concepts. Ohm's law is not a general rule, Kirchoff's laws are more general and do not imply that current and voltage are thje same: apply them to more complicated circuits than a single resistor and you would see this. Ohm's law has little to do with amplifiers. In the case of a voltage follwer, the output voltage is approximately the same as the input voltage but the available current is higher due to the current gain of the transistor. As already noted, the input resistance of the voltage follower is much higher than the output resistance so Ohm's law does not apply since these resistances are different.






        share|improve this answer












        Just because 2 quantities are related by an equation does not make them the same. For example, F=ma relatesd force and acceleration by a fixed parameter, mass, but they are still distinct concepts. Ohm's law is not a general rule, Kirchoff's laws are more general and do not imply that current and voltage are thje same: apply them to more complicated circuits than a single resistor and you would see this. Ohm's law has little to do with amplifiers. In the case of a voltage follwer, the output voltage is approximately the same as the input voltage but the available current is higher due to the current gain of the transistor. As already noted, the input resistance of the voltage follower is much higher than the output resistance so Ohm's law does not apply since these resistances are different.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 2 days ago









        BarryBarry

        9,86711415




        9,86711415












        • I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
          – Bidon
          2 days ago


















        • I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
          – Bidon
          2 days ago
















        I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
        – Bidon
        2 days ago




        I think I see where my mistake was, I was not accounting for the difference in impedance.
        – Bidon
        2 days ago













        3















        ... thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to have a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage?




        By having a change in impedance.



        In very crude terms the base current sees a resistance of βRE whereas the output impedance is RE.




        This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




        No. A transistor isn't a resistor.






        share|improve this answer


























          3















          ... thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to have a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage?




          By having a change in impedance.



          In very crude terms the base current sees a resistance of βRE whereas the output impedance is RE.




          This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




          No. A transistor isn't a resistor.






          share|improve this answer
























            3












            3








            3







            ... thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to have a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage?




            By having a change in impedance.



            In very crude terms the base current sees a resistance of βRE whereas the output impedance is RE.




            This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




            No. A transistor isn't a resistor.






            share|improve this answer













            ... thus there's a gain in current, how is it possible to have a gain in current, and consequently a gain in power, but not in voltage?




            By having a change in impedance.



            In very crude terms the base current sees a resistance of βRE whereas the output impedance is RE.




            This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




            No. A transistor isn't a resistor.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 2 days ago









            TransistorTransistor

            80.9k778174




            80.9k778174























                1















                This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




                A transistor is an active device. It modulates the energy of an external power source to mimic the input signal. While Ohm's Law can be use to describe the behavior of certain aspects of active devices in some applications, keep in mind that it was derived to describe the relationships at play in a simple resistor. For anything beyond that you have to pay attention to the details.



                By its definition, a bipolar transistor delivers current gain only. It is the circuit architecture and components around the transistor that translate this into voltage gain- sometimes.






                share|improve this answer


























                  1















                  This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




                  A transistor is an active device. It modulates the energy of an external power source to mimic the input signal. While Ohm's Law can be use to describe the behavior of certain aspects of active devices in some applications, keep in mind that it was derived to describe the relationships at play in a simple resistor. For anything beyond that you have to pay attention to the details.



                  By its definition, a bipolar transistor delivers current gain only. It is the circuit architecture and components around the transistor that translate this into voltage gain- sometimes.






                  share|improve this answer
























                    1












                    1








                    1







                    This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




                    A transistor is an active device. It modulates the energy of an external power source to mimic the input signal. While Ohm's Law can be use to describe the behavior of certain aspects of active devices in some applications, keep in mind that it was derived to describe the relationships at play in a simple resistor. For anything beyond that you have to pay attention to the details.



                    By its definition, a bipolar transistor delivers current gain only. It is the circuit architecture and components around the transistor that translate this into voltage gain- sometimes.






                    share|improve this answer













                    This seems to contradict Ohm's law, shouldn't a current gain be accompanied by a voltage gain?




                    A transistor is an active device. It modulates the energy of an external power source to mimic the input signal. While Ohm's Law can be use to describe the behavior of certain aspects of active devices in some applications, keep in mind that it was derived to describe the relationships at play in a simple resistor. For anything beyond that you have to pay attention to the details.



                    By its definition, a bipolar transistor delivers current gain only. It is the circuit architecture and components around the transistor that translate this into voltage gain- sometimes.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 2 days ago









                    AnalogKidAnalogKid

                    1,62625




                    1,62625























                        1














                        Ic =hFE*Ib is then shared by both I(Re) and I(cout).



                        However for DC control, I(Cout) can never take all of the current of Ic . As Re serves a purpose to DC pull down the emitter and so R load must always be greater than Re for full swing voltages.



                        The result when overloaded, is the cap current pulls up the emitter so Vbe reduces then Ib reduces and the lower level signal cannot be reached.



                        Ohm’s Law still works here.
                        One simply uses Xc for the cap being much smaller so Rload must be greater than Re for linear operation



                        also Vce must be Vce saturation where hFE drops significantly as a another condition.



                        the power gain comes from hFE * Rb/Re equivalent loads






                        share|improve this answer




























                          1














                          Ic =hFE*Ib is then shared by both I(Re) and I(cout).



                          However for DC control, I(Cout) can never take all of the current of Ic . As Re serves a purpose to DC pull down the emitter and so R load must always be greater than Re for full swing voltages.



                          The result when overloaded, is the cap current pulls up the emitter so Vbe reduces then Ib reduces and the lower level signal cannot be reached.



                          Ohm’s Law still works here.
                          One simply uses Xc for the cap being much smaller so Rload must be greater than Re for linear operation



                          also Vce must be Vce saturation where hFE drops significantly as a another condition.



                          the power gain comes from hFE * Rb/Re equivalent loads






                          share|improve this answer


























                            1












                            1








                            1






                            Ic =hFE*Ib is then shared by both I(Re) and I(cout).



                            However for DC control, I(Cout) can never take all of the current of Ic . As Re serves a purpose to DC pull down the emitter and so R load must always be greater than Re for full swing voltages.



                            The result when overloaded, is the cap current pulls up the emitter so Vbe reduces then Ib reduces and the lower level signal cannot be reached.



                            Ohm’s Law still works here.
                            One simply uses Xc for the cap being much smaller so Rload must be greater than Re for linear operation



                            also Vce must be Vce saturation where hFE drops significantly as a another condition.



                            the power gain comes from hFE * Rb/Re equivalent loads






                            share|improve this answer














                            Ic =hFE*Ib is then shared by both I(Re) and I(cout).



                            However for DC control, I(Cout) can never take all of the current of Ic . As Re serves a purpose to DC pull down the emitter and so R load must always be greater than Re for full swing voltages.



                            The result when overloaded, is the cap current pulls up the emitter so Vbe reduces then Ib reduces and the lower level signal cannot be reached.



                            Ohm’s Law still works here.
                            One simply uses Xc for the cap being much smaller so Rload must be greater than Re for linear operation



                            also Vce must be Vce saturation where hFE drops significantly as a another condition.



                            the power gain comes from hFE * Rb/Re equivalent loads







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 2 days ago

























                            answered 2 days ago









                            Sunnyskyguy EE75Sunnyskyguy EE75

                            62.9k22194




                            62.9k22194






















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