A solution for the time-travel paradox - What could go wrong?
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Time travel has been invented and it goes like this.
You travel backwards in time at the same speed you normally travel forward. Everything is identical - you do all the actions the same but in reverse. When you return to the present you live your life at normal speed just as you did the first time.
So what is different? Well only your consciousness is travelling the timeline. Although your body is locked into all the old actions, your consciousness can form new memories as it moves backwards and forwards.
Suppose I go back to when I was 8 years old. I can relive the exact same experiences as I had then, first backwards and then forwards. I will see the same things and experience the same things but in reverse and then at normal speed forwards.
Problem
If I want to go back a year then it will take me a whole year to get there. Then I will need another year to return to the present. For this reason people tend to go back only a short time - for example to find the wallet they lost earlier in the day. With luck they can observe themselves losing the wallet but of course they can't do anything about it. However at least they know precisely where and when it happened and this will help them find it. They might even be able to see themselves being pick-pocketed and mentally take note of the thief's appearance.
You can only wind backwards and forwards like a movie and cannot change anything that happened to you and therefore there are no paradoxes. Or are there?
Question
Has this solved the time-travel paradox or can you find some fault in the scheme? What could go wrong?
Notes
You cannot change the past. You just watch history unfold as a spectator locked in your own body. You experience everything in perfect, exquisite detail just as you did the first time around. (Thanks to Caio Nogueira for asking)
Travel in either direction occurs at the same speed that we already travel forward in time.
There is no way to fast-rewind or fast-forward.
You can of course travel forwards in time but only at the normal pace! In other words nothing is different from normal living. Only reverse time-travel makes a difference.
You must set the time in advance so, once you have set off, there is no way to change your mind.
Time travel is available to most people.
Edit: Imagine that your body is a four-dimensional object. It exists at every point in time simultaneously. Therefore none of your actions can ever change. It is only your consciousness that can move back-and-forth along the timeline.
reality-check time-travel paradox
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
Time travel has been invented and it goes like this.
You travel backwards in time at the same speed you normally travel forward. Everything is identical - you do all the actions the same but in reverse. When you return to the present you live your life at normal speed just as you did the first time.
So what is different? Well only your consciousness is travelling the timeline. Although your body is locked into all the old actions, your consciousness can form new memories as it moves backwards and forwards.
Suppose I go back to when I was 8 years old. I can relive the exact same experiences as I had then, first backwards and then forwards. I will see the same things and experience the same things but in reverse and then at normal speed forwards.
Problem
If I want to go back a year then it will take me a whole year to get there. Then I will need another year to return to the present. For this reason people tend to go back only a short time - for example to find the wallet they lost earlier in the day. With luck they can observe themselves losing the wallet but of course they can't do anything about it. However at least they know precisely where and when it happened and this will help them find it. They might even be able to see themselves being pick-pocketed and mentally take note of the thief's appearance.
You can only wind backwards and forwards like a movie and cannot change anything that happened to you and therefore there are no paradoxes. Or are there?
Question
Has this solved the time-travel paradox or can you find some fault in the scheme? What could go wrong?
Notes
You cannot change the past. You just watch history unfold as a spectator locked in your own body. You experience everything in perfect, exquisite detail just as you did the first time around. (Thanks to Caio Nogueira for asking)
Travel in either direction occurs at the same speed that we already travel forward in time.
There is no way to fast-rewind or fast-forward.
You can of course travel forwards in time but only at the normal pace! In other words nothing is different from normal living. Only reverse time-travel makes a difference.
You must set the time in advance so, once you have set off, there is no way to change your mind.
Time travel is available to most people.
Edit: Imagine that your body is a four-dimensional object. It exists at every point in time simultaneously. Therefore none of your actions can ever change. It is only your consciousness that can move back-and-forth along the timeline.
reality-check time-travel paradox
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
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– L.Dutch♦
2 hours ago
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For some reason, this made me think of All You Zombies even though the time travel mechanism is very different.
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– Walter Mitty
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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Time travel has been invented and it goes like this.
You travel backwards in time at the same speed you normally travel forward. Everything is identical - you do all the actions the same but in reverse. When you return to the present you live your life at normal speed just as you did the first time.
So what is different? Well only your consciousness is travelling the timeline. Although your body is locked into all the old actions, your consciousness can form new memories as it moves backwards and forwards.
Suppose I go back to when I was 8 years old. I can relive the exact same experiences as I had then, first backwards and then forwards. I will see the same things and experience the same things but in reverse and then at normal speed forwards.
Problem
If I want to go back a year then it will take me a whole year to get there. Then I will need another year to return to the present. For this reason people tend to go back only a short time - for example to find the wallet they lost earlier in the day. With luck they can observe themselves losing the wallet but of course they can't do anything about it. However at least they know precisely where and when it happened and this will help them find it. They might even be able to see themselves being pick-pocketed and mentally take note of the thief's appearance.
You can only wind backwards and forwards like a movie and cannot change anything that happened to you and therefore there are no paradoxes. Or are there?
Question
Has this solved the time-travel paradox or can you find some fault in the scheme? What could go wrong?
Notes
You cannot change the past. You just watch history unfold as a spectator locked in your own body. You experience everything in perfect, exquisite detail just as you did the first time around. (Thanks to Caio Nogueira for asking)
Travel in either direction occurs at the same speed that we already travel forward in time.
There is no way to fast-rewind or fast-forward.
You can of course travel forwards in time but only at the normal pace! In other words nothing is different from normal living. Only reverse time-travel makes a difference.
You must set the time in advance so, once you have set off, there is no way to change your mind.
Time travel is available to most people.
Edit: Imagine that your body is a four-dimensional object. It exists at every point in time simultaneously. Therefore none of your actions can ever change. It is only your consciousness that can move back-and-forth along the timeline.
reality-check time-travel paradox
$endgroup$
Time travel has been invented and it goes like this.
You travel backwards in time at the same speed you normally travel forward. Everything is identical - you do all the actions the same but in reverse. When you return to the present you live your life at normal speed just as you did the first time.
So what is different? Well only your consciousness is travelling the timeline. Although your body is locked into all the old actions, your consciousness can form new memories as it moves backwards and forwards.
Suppose I go back to when I was 8 years old. I can relive the exact same experiences as I had then, first backwards and then forwards. I will see the same things and experience the same things but in reverse and then at normal speed forwards.
Problem
If I want to go back a year then it will take me a whole year to get there. Then I will need another year to return to the present. For this reason people tend to go back only a short time - for example to find the wallet they lost earlier in the day. With luck they can observe themselves losing the wallet but of course they can't do anything about it. However at least they know precisely where and when it happened and this will help them find it. They might even be able to see themselves being pick-pocketed and mentally take note of the thief's appearance.
You can only wind backwards and forwards like a movie and cannot change anything that happened to you and therefore there are no paradoxes. Or are there?
Question
Has this solved the time-travel paradox or can you find some fault in the scheme? What could go wrong?
Notes
You cannot change the past. You just watch history unfold as a spectator locked in your own body. You experience everything in perfect, exquisite detail just as you did the first time around. (Thanks to Caio Nogueira for asking)
Travel in either direction occurs at the same speed that we already travel forward in time.
There is no way to fast-rewind or fast-forward.
You can of course travel forwards in time but only at the normal pace! In other words nothing is different from normal living. Only reverse time-travel makes a difference.
You must set the time in advance so, once you have set off, there is no way to change your mind.
Time travel is available to most people.
Edit: Imagine that your body is a four-dimensional object. It exists at every point in time simultaneously. Therefore none of your actions can ever change. It is only your consciousness that can move back-and-forth along the timeline.
reality-check time-travel paradox
reality-check time-travel paradox
edited 9 hours ago
chasly from UK
asked 10 hours ago
chasly from UKchasly from UK
13.7k462131
13.7k462131
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
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– L.Dutch♦
2 hours ago
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For some reason, this made me think of All You Zombies even though the time travel mechanism is very different.
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– Walter Mitty
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
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– L.Dutch♦
2 hours ago
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For some reason, this made me think of All You Zombies even though the time travel mechanism is very different.
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– Walter Mitty
1 hour ago
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
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– L.Dutch♦
2 hours ago
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Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
2 hours ago
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For some reason, this made me think of All You Zombies even though the time travel mechanism is very different.
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– Walter Mitty
1 hour ago
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For some reason, this made me think of All You Zombies even though the time travel mechanism is very different.
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– Walter Mitty
1 hour ago
add a comment |
11 Answers
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There are no paradox concerns.
Your system prevents modification of the past, so there is no way to cause changes which would lead you to not go back in time, or go back in time differently.
Your system cannot see into the future, so you cannot see the effects of your actions and act differently.
Really, it's more of a VCR than time travel. You can go back to see the things you previously recorded, and that's it. Also, there's no fast-forward/rewind, just play forwards and play backwards.
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Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
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– Gryphon
10 hours ago
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@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
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– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
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I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
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– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
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For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
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– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
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@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
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– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
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I think there is a major flaw:
Since there is no fast forward, you could never catch up with the present. For everyone else, time moves forward and you are always behind.
Unless triggering the time travel freezes time for everyone else.
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OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
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– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
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If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
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– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
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I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
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– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
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Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
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– Davo
8 hours ago
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If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
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– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
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If you do it through your mind there is no problem, that's just memory(a very good and also problematic one) or watching a movie in first person of your actions, strap a camera in your head, force yourself to follow this rules and you can do this yourself, but if you do it through external interference like magic or a machine that send you on time, that's a action that happened in the past and you stay trapped on the loop.
To break the loop paradox, you could create a "escape rope", Lets say this.
january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press the button to the escape rope, you keep living your life normaly, at january 13 of 2019 at 15:00 you see a murder, then at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you rewind time to the january 12 of 2019 at 12:59, you start the loop, then at january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press again the "escape rope" that have a command which says "if you are on a loop unmake the effect of the loop button when you press it" (frase it as you like, also yes, I code), when you arrive at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you press the button the effect of the escape rope triggers and you break out of the loop.
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Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
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– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
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Musing about the concept...
Essentially, living memory becomes (potentially) more accessible. The big benefit is that those memories could contain information that was originally not really noticed, but with the hindsight of future knowledge can be 'recalled' and brought forward and acted on.
It creates an interesting new branch of criminal investigations. Witnesses can reveal forgotten details, especially form recent events, leading to more certain rulings.
It creates an interesting new branch of research, for the same reason. With proper incentive, a survivor of Event X (a Kennedy assassination, for example) can potentially bring back forgotten evidence. A WWII survivor could be 'sent back' to try to 'remember'(?) conversations that have since been lost... a conversation with Einstein, or Tesla.
Conversations with native Americans in their own language could (potentially) be recovered -- languages which are inadequately documented and have since gone extinct.
This works for any organization in fact. Crime syndicates can use it (potentially) to better learn the identity of informants. Or, to more easily remember (or notice!) the location of valuables.
New contributor
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This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
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– Gryphon
8 hours ago
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While I do not see any issues with paradoxes with this "type" of time-travelling, there are some odd things that I'd question.
First of all, your example of losing your wallet. While it's great to "re-live" your past and remembering that you put it in your couch, how would going back help if you were not conscious that you lost your wallet, by dropping it for example? Your original body would not realize that you dropped it, so even if you go back a second time, you'd still not find it.
That goes the same for a pickpocketer. How would you know if someone is doing that to you when you go back? Does your consciousness have an out-of-the-body experience and see what you couldn't see before? Probably not, based on your explanation of doing all the actions and experiencing everything all over again. So, if you get pickpocketed without realizing it, you wouldn't find out even if you go back.
Then, there's things like sleep. Will your consciousness perceive your original body sleeping? Or will it fall asleep the same as you did before? Would you remember or experience past dreams? Would you still retain information about dreams when you wake up? Will your consciousness stay "awake" during sleep instead? If I relive the moment my house got robbed while I was asleep, would I be able to hear the robbers even though I was asleep before? There are a lot of questions to be answered here..
If your consciousness relives everything, does that include things that do affect consciousness like drinking alcohol? What if you relive the moment wherein you were drunk? Will the consciousness that went back in the past also become drunk? Wouldn't that mean that you won't be able to retain information during this state because the consciousness that went back is also drunk?
And finally, I'd worry about mental health. What if someone relives a very emotional moment in their life? The feeling of success, joy of being accepted by your partner, winning, pleasure, getting "high", etc. What if someone keeps reliving those moments everyday? If you go back to the present, you'd lose those feelings, and might want to do that all over again. That could stagnate someone or even depress them, as they try to compare their past from the present.
While these questions do not refer to having a paradox, it's curious how would this system work for an everyday person.
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You have a whomping big paradox
You stipulate that the traveller "cannot change anything that happened to [he/she]." That's a problem. You can jump back and relive time, but you can't change the fact that you jumped back to relive time. You'll never live another second of free will at all. Let's investigate this.
Assumption
Let's ignore the entire is-there-free-will question by simply assuming that time becomes locked into place once experienced. From this perspective, you can jump into the past and "relive" it until the "present" while meeting your stipulation.
There is, of course, a problem with this. Nothing can change. You can't change the focus of your eyes, their placement, the attention you're giving to what you're listening to, nothing at all. Your conscious self is "reliving" the time from the perspective that it's storing the info into memory, but even if you had the ability to analyze what was happening — you can't do anything, change anything, nothing. It would be maddening, using your example, to jump back in time and not be able to actually focus on where you lost your wallet because you can't change what your physical body is doing: and what it's doing is not paying attention to the wallet.
But, let's return to the paradox...
You jump back and back and back... what happens to everyone else?
Because you can't change a darn thing, you're stuck. You made the mistake of choosing to jump back in time and you'll make that same choice, step into that same machine, watch Dr. Naidoo push that button to send you back, forever. Because you can't change anything.
What's the paradox? What's happening with everyone else? Theoretically, you took off to the past and your wife, grateful that you did, is now eyeballing the proverbial post man thinking that she has all the time in the world.
Or would she?
Does time become locked into place once a traveler makes that first jump? Or does it continue? The question can't be answered from the traveler's perspective. It can only be answered by you, the author, choosing how to resolve the paradox.
Does time stop for everyone when someone jumps backward, or not?
Edit
The reason this is a paradox is because everyone else is involved when someone jumps back in time. Fundamentally, everyone jumps back in time with him (unless you want to declare that there are two independent time streams: one for the traveler and one for everyone else). If the traveler can't get out of the time loop, neither can anyone else. Time stops moving forward for everyone.
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"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
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– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
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@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
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– JBH
2 hours ago
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This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
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– pipe
1 hour ago
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Yes and no....
Part of time is that not only does the past affect the future, but the future also affects the past.
By going back in time and taking note of the pickpocket, for example, you learn enough about him to file a police report, so you do so.
However, had you not gone into the past to discover what happened to your wallet, you have still changed the future, as you would not have reported it stolen had you not discovered it was stolen and not lost.
So, say instead, you were going to meet a friend for lunch, and in the future, that friend would have dropped his wallet, and lost it at your lunch. Now, he doesn't lose it...
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But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
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– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
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@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
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– Richard U
10 hours ago
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But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
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– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
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@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
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– Richard U
10 hours ago
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Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
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– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
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You go back by rewinding, but your conscience does not go backwards? It is actually remembering future events relative to the time you return to you. It's like information travels backwards with you. In the first scenario you can act to undo mistakes and therefore the mistake was never done and there was no reason for the trip - That's already a paradox. In the second scenario, the same things will happen again. That is, you do the same mistakes even though you know it. What prevents you from taking corrective measures? Why, in your example, you would see the pickpocketer and could do nothing about it? Would you be able to see him from a different angle and still be unable to warn your past-yourself? Suppose you stopped your time-rewind and returned to "replay", will you be the "same one", or will another observer see you and your past-you?
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This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
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– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
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Your system cannot work with our understanding of physics.
Think of Schrödinger' cat. The effect most people associate to it cannot be reproduced on a macroscopic object such as a cat, but it is reproducible with particles. It is happening at every moment to every subatomic particle. But for the sake of argument, let's call some paint particles on a brick of a wall our cat particles. They can cause the paint to peel off in various patterns; You will only know when you observe them.
You passed by your backyard yesterday without paying attention to a certain brick. Today you notice some paint is peeling off that brick, forming a pattern.
You go back to the "past" to do the wallet finding thing. You think you lost it close to the wall, so now you pay attention to the brick.
The fact that you are observing them on the past means they have to collapse their wave function at that moment, so the universe decides whether and how the paint peels off at that moment. You just changed the past.
You have a paradox now. If the paint must always off to be just as you remember from the "present", then the wave function collapse in the "present" extended to the "past", meaning anything happening in the present affects and changes the "past" retroactively. Otherwise, wave function collapsing from direct "past" observations may cause changes to events anyway, and those changed will accumulate through time a la butterfly effect.
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I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
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– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
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If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
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– Renan
9 hours ago
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Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
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– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
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Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
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– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
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@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
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– Renan
9 hours ago
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You're missing something... you are re-living things, but without being able to control the body you must somehow also be aware of the thoughts of your past-tense self. So you're not just sensing it, you're also sensing yourself! If this were not so, then as you were living "forwards from the past" how could you make an informed judgment as you live out the predetermined history again?
Also, if you were to re-live the same thing twice, you would necessarily become aware of the you that was re-living it the first time, since that, too, was you. Otherwise you could never re-live what you had been thinking when you re-saw what you saw!
Then if you re-lived the same thing many times, your experience would be crowded with your own consciousness and it would be overwhelming.
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You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
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– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
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If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
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– Renan
8 hours ago
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If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
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– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is not a coherent concept. Time traveling in this way would be indistinguishable from not time traveling at all.
Imagine you give me something that is either this time travel device or a placebo. It's 5:00, and I intent to travel back to 5:00 at 6:00.
Here's my reasoning at 5:00: "Hmm, this could be the me that hasn't yet pushed the button. Or this could be the me from 6:00 coming back to 5:00. I can't tell any difference. If I could, I could act differently and change the past. Seems to be working."
Here's my reasoning at 6:00: "Okay, I'm ready to push the button. Let's see what happens next. Well, I guess, I sort of do. I mean, I already pushed the button in some sense."
Here's my reasoning at 6:01: "Cool. I pushed the button. I remember living from 5:00 to 6:00. I remember pushing the button. It all seems cool to me. I guess it worked. Maybe."
There is no conceivable way anyone could tell the difference between having this device and not. Consciousness always implies the ability to use your memory to make decisions. If you could ever remember the future, you would encounter paradoxes because with that memory, you could act on future knowledge and without it, you could not.
If you mean time travel where I go back to the past, remember the future, but cannot base my decisions on what I know, you're talking about a torture device that turns us into watchers rather than deciders and actors. If I go back in time, can I act based on my memories or not?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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11 Answers
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$begingroup$
There are no paradox concerns.
Your system prevents modification of the past, so there is no way to cause changes which would lead you to not go back in time, or go back in time differently.
Your system cannot see into the future, so you cannot see the effects of your actions and act differently.
Really, it's more of a VCR than time travel. You can go back to see the things you previously recorded, and that's it. Also, there's no fast-forward/rewind, just play forwards and play backwards.
$endgroup$
12
$begingroup$
Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
There are no paradox concerns.
Your system prevents modification of the past, so there is no way to cause changes which would lead you to not go back in time, or go back in time differently.
Your system cannot see into the future, so you cannot see the effects of your actions and act differently.
Really, it's more of a VCR than time travel. You can go back to see the things you previously recorded, and that's it. Also, there's no fast-forward/rewind, just play forwards and play backwards.
$endgroup$
12
$begingroup$
Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
There are no paradox concerns.
Your system prevents modification of the past, so there is no way to cause changes which would lead you to not go back in time, or go back in time differently.
Your system cannot see into the future, so you cannot see the effects of your actions and act differently.
Really, it's more of a VCR than time travel. You can go back to see the things you previously recorded, and that's it. Also, there's no fast-forward/rewind, just play forwards and play backwards.
$endgroup$
There are no paradox concerns.
Your system prevents modification of the past, so there is no way to cause changes which would lead you to not go back in time, or go back in time differently.
Your system cannot see into the future, so you cannot see the effects of your actions and act differently.
Really, it's more of a VCR than time travel. You can go back to see the things you previously recorded, and that's it. Also, there's no fast-forward/rewind, just play forwards and play backwards.
answered 10 hours ago
Cort AmmonCort Ammon
109k17187385
109k17187385
12
$begingroup$
Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
12
$begingroup$
Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
12
12
$begingroup$
Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Essentially, this isn't actually time-travel, it's merely retro-cognition.
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon Yes. I've been trying to figure out a good wording treating it like a photographic memory with some really annoying toll associated with its use (the wear on one's conciousness for 2x the time... if there's any wear at all), but it seems hard to pen properly.
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I have to imagine that if we had perfect memories it would feel more or less like this. The entire temporal aspect of it is always going to be subjective. No one else can really notice that you are doing it in the moment. I would hesitate to call this time travel in any sense
$endgroup$
– D.Spetz
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
For a start there would be the disorientation of experiencing life backwards even though you retain the memory of experiencing it forwards (just like watching a movie backwards). When you move forward you can get more of the plot by making sense of what happened. Admittedly a perfect memory would achieve this but not even savants have a perfect memory for every bodily sensation they ever had and usually they sacrifice other abilities to compensate for gaining the ones they do have (Rain man etc.). However this may be the best answer except that Caio Nogueira has come up with a possible bug.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gryphon - Okay, retro-cognition but that is different from a perfect memory because someone who remembered everything would also be recording new memories at the same as they searched back though their memory. In contrast, actually travelling mentally back along the timeline would block out new experiences (apart from weirdly going backwards) and then the novel experience of overlaying memories on the return trip.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
I think there is a major flaw:
Since there is no fast forward, you could never catch up with the present. For everyone else, time moves forward and you are always behind.
Unless triggering the time travel freezes time for everyone else.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
$endgroup$
– Davo
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
I think there is a major flaw:
Since there is no fast forward, you could never catch up with the present. For everyone else, time moves forward and you are always behind.
Unless triggering the time travel freezes time for everyone else.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
$endgroup$
– Davo
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
I think there is a major flaw:
Since there is no fast forward, you could never catch up with the present. For everyone else, time moves forward and you are always behind.
Unless triggering the time travel freezes time for everyone else.
$endgroup$
I think there is a major flaw:
Since there is no fast forward, you could never catch up with the present. For everyone else, time moves forward and you are always behind.
Unless triggering the time travel freezes time for everyone else.
answered 10 hours ago
Soeren D.Soeren D.
3514
3514
1
$begingroup$
OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
$endgroup$
– Davo
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
1
$begingroup$
OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
$endgroup$
– Davo
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
OK, so suppose I stand next to you when you trigger the travel backwards? What Do I see? Does my consciousness move forward at that point? Because if it would, then I would live in the Future by the time you are back. Your concept would only work if time moves backward for everyone.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If my consciousness moves forward and yours moves backwards and then forward at the same speed, we will forever be out of sync, you will never again be able to interact with me or react to my actions. I will forever see your unconcious body. You are forever locked. This may well be at the core the same looping paradox Caio Nogueira describes.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am not talking about our interaction with your automatically behaving body in the past. I am talking about our interaction after the time you triggered your trip. How should you automatically remember to behave actions you have not done at that Point? Even if that worked, you would always be locked.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
$endgroup$
– Davo
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Exactly. If you go one year in the past, then spend a year getting to the point you started, you will be two years behind the rest of the world. What is driving your body while your consciousness is two years behind?
$endgroup$
– Davo
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you have a fixed immutable 4 dimensional space time, then not only the past is fixed, but so is the future. Having a conscience is optional, since everyone is essentially acting as a robot and no action can ever change the future. Nothing you would learn from the trip in the past could have any effect on the world. Why would you do it in the first place? You are not free to do any action. Possible, very depressing, but what would drive any story of interest.
$endgroup$
– Soeren D.
7 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
$begingroup$
If you do it through your mind there is no problem, that's just memory(a very good and also problematic one) or watching a movie in first person of your actions, strap a camera in your head, force yourself to follow this rules and you can do this yourself, but if you do it through external interference like magic or a machine that send you on time, that's a action that happened in the past and you stay trapped on the loop.
To break the loop paradox, you could create a "escape rope", Lets say this.
january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press the button to the escape rope, you keep living your life normaly, at january 13 of 2019 at 15:00 you see a murder, then at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you rewind time to the january 12 of 2019 at 12:59, you start the loop, then at january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press again the "escape rope" that have a command which says "if you are on a loop unmake the effect of the loop button when you press it" (frase it as you like, also yes, I code), when you arrive at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you press the button the effect of the escape rope triggers and you break out of the loop.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
$endgroup$
– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you do it through your mind there is no problem, that's just memory(a very good and also problematic one) or watching a movie in first person of your actions, strap a camera in your head, force yourself to follow this rules and you can do this yourself, but if you do it through external interference like magic or a machine that send you on time, that's a action that happened in the past and you stay trapped on the loop.
To break the loop paradox, you could create a "escape rope", Lets say this.
january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press the button to the escape rope, you keep living your life normaly, at january 13 of 2019 at 15:00 you see a murder, then at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you rewind time to the january 12 of 2019 at 12:59, you start the loop, then at january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press again the "escape rope" that have a command which says "if you are on a loop unmake the effect of the loop button when you press it" (frase it as you like, also yes, I code), when you arrive at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you press the button the effect of the escape rope triggers and you break out of the loop.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
$endgroup$
– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you do it through your mind there is no problem, that's just memory(a very good and also problematic one) or watching a movie in first person of your actions, strap a camera in your head, force yourself to follow this rules and you can do this yourself, but if you do it through external interference like magic or a machine that send you on time, that's a action that happened in the past and you stay trapped on the loop.
To break the loop paradox, you could create a "escape rope", Lets say this.
january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press the button to the escape rope, you keep living your life normaly, at january 13 of 2019 at 15:00 you see a murder, then at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you rewind time to the january 12 of 2019 at 12:59, you start the loop, then at january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press again the "escape rope" that have a command which says "if you are on a loop unmake the effect of the loop button when you press it" (frase it as you like, also yes, I code), when you arrive at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you press the button the effect of the escape rope triggers and you break out of the loop.
$endgroup$
If you do it through your mind there is no problem, that's just memory(a very good and also problematic one) or watching a movie in first person of your actions, strap a camera in your head, force yourself to follow this rules and you can do this yourself, but if you do it through external interference like magic or a machine that send you on time, that's a action that happened in the past and you stay trapped on the loop.
To break the loop paradox, you could create a "escape rope", Lets say this.
january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press the button to the escape rope, you keep living your life normaly, at january 13 of 2019 at 15:00 you see a murder, then at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you rewind time to the january 12 of 2019 at 12:59, you start the loop, then at january 12 of 2019 at 13:00 you press again the "escape rope" that have a command which says "if you are on a loop unmake the effect of the loop button when you press it" (frase it as you like, also yes, I code), when you arrive at january 14 of 2019 at 12:00 you press the button the effect of the escape rope triggers and you break out of the loop.
edited 10 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Caio NogueiraCaio Nogueira
4831312
4831312
$begingroup$
Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
$endgroup$
– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
$endgroup$
– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
$endgroup$
– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes, the loop issue is a clever notice. However, if you are bound to re-enact your past actions, you will likely press the "rewind" as if it's your first time and you loop again. Doing it differently simply means you can change things in the past.
$endgroup$
– Christmas Snow
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Musing about the concept...
Essentially, living memory becomes (potentially) more accessible. The big benefit is that those memories could contain information that was originally not really noticed, but with the hindsight of future knowledge can be 'recalled' and brought forward and acted on.
It creates an interesting new branch of criminal investigations. Witnesses can reveal forgotten details, especially form recent events, leading to more certain rulings.
It creates an interesting new branch of research, for the same reason. With proper incentive, a survivor of Event X (a Kennedy assassination, for example) can potentially bring back forgotten evidence. A WWII survivor could be 'sent back' to try to 'remember'(?) conversations that have since been lost... a conversation with Einstein, or Tesla.
Conversations with native Americans in their own language could (potentially) be recovered -- languages which are inadequately documented and have since gone extinct.
This works for any organization in fact. Crime syndicates can use it (potentially) to better learn the identity of informants. Or, to more easily remember (or notice!) the location of valuables.
New contributor
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Musing about the concept...
Essentially, living memory becomes (potentially) more accessible. The big benefit is that those memories could contain information that was originally not really noticed, but with the hindsight of future knowledge can be 'recalled' and brought forward and acted on.
It creates an interesting new branch of criminal investigations. Witnesses can reveal forgotten details, especially form recent events, leading to more certain rulings.
It creates an interesting new branch of research, for the same reason. With proper incentive, a survivor of Event X (a Kennedy assassination, for example) can potentially bring back forgotten evidence. A WWII survivor could be 'sent back' to try to 'remember'(?) conversations that have since been lost... a conversation with Einstein, or Tesla.
Conversations with native Americans in their own language could (potentially) be recovered -- languages which are inadequately documented and have since gone extinct.
This works for any organization in fact. Crime syndicates can use it (potentially) to better learn the identity of informants. Or, to more easily remember (or notice!) the location of valuables.
New contributor
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Musing about the concept...
Essentially, living memory becomes (potentially) more accessible. The big benefit is that those memories could contain information that was originally not really noticed, but with the hindsight of future knowledge can be 'recalled' and brought forward and acted on.
It creates an interesting new branch of criminal investigations. Witnesses can reveal forgotten details, especially form recent events, leading to more certain rulings.
It creates an interesting new branch of research, for the same reason. With proper incentive, a survivor of Event X (a Kennedy assassination, for example) can potentially bring back forgotten evidence. A WWII survivor could be 'sent back' to try to 'remember'(?) conversations that have since been lost... a conversation with Einstein, or Tesla.
Conversations with native Americans in their own language could (potentially) be recovered -- languages which are inadequately documented and have since gone extinct.
This works for any organization in fact. Crime syndicates can use it (potentially) to better learn the identity of informants. Or, to more easily remember (or notice!) the location of valuables.
New contributor
$endgroup$
Musing about the concept...
Essentially, living memory becomes (potentially) more accessible. The big benefit is that those memories could contain information that was originally not really noticed, but with the hindsight of future knowledge can be 'recalled' and brought forward and acted on.
It creates an interesting new branch of criminal investigations. Witnesses can reveal forgotten details, especially form recent events, leading to more certain rulings.
It creates an interesting new branch of research, for the same reason. With proper incentive, a survivor of Event X (a Kennedy assassination, for example) can potentially bring back forgotten evidence. A WWII survivor could be 'sent back' to try to 'remember'(?) conversations that have since been lost... a conversation with Einstein, or Tesla.
Conversations with native Americans in their own language could (potentially) be recovered -- languages which are inadequately documented and have since gone extinct.
This works for any organization in fact. Crime syndicates can use it (potentially) to better learn the identity of informants. Or, to more easily remember (or notice!) the location of valuables.
New contributor
edited 9 hours ago
New contributor
answered 10 hours ago
rjerje
214
214
New contributor
New contributor
1
$begingroup$
This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This does not provide an answer to the question. Once you have sufficient reputation you will be able to comment on any post; instead, provide answers that don't require clarification from the asker. - From Review
$endgroup$
– Gryphon
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I do not see any issues with paradoxes with this "type" of time-travelling, there are some odd things that I'd question.
First of all, your example of losing your wallet. While it's great to "re-live" your past and remembering that you put it in your couch, how would going back help if you were not conscious that you lost your wallet, by dropping it for example? Your original body would not realize that you dropped it, so even if you go back a second time, you'd still not find it.
That goes the same for a pickpocketer. How would you know if someone is doing that to you when you go back? Does your consciousness have an out-of-the-body experience and see what you couldn't see before? Probably not, based on your explanation of doing all the actions and experiencing everything all over again. So, if you get pickpocketed without realizing it, you wouldn't find out even if you go back.
Then, there's things like sleep. Will your consciousness perceive your original body sleeping? Or will it fall asleep the same as you did before? Would you remember or experience past dreams? Would you still retain information about dreams when you wake up? Will your consciousness stay "awake" during sleep instead? If I relive the moment my house got robbed while I was asleep, would I be able to hear the robbers even though I was asleep before? There are a lot of questions to be answered here..
If your consciousness relives everything, does that include things that do affect consciousness like drinking alcohol? What if you relive the moment wherein you were drunk? Will the consciousness that went back in the past also become drunk? Wouldn't that mean that you won't be able to retain information during this state because the consciousness that went back is also drunk?
And finally, I'd worry about mental health. What if someone relives a very emotional moment in their life? The feeling of success, joy of being accepted by your partner, winning, pleasure, getting "high", etc. What if someone keeps reliving those moments everyday? If you go back to the present, you'd lose those feelings, and might want to do that all over again. That could stagnate someone or even depress them, as they try to compare their past from the present.
While these questions do not refer to having a paradox, it's curious how would this system work for an everyday person.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I do not see any issues with paradoxes with this "type" of time-travelling, there are some odd things that I'd question.
First of all, your example of losing your wallet. While it's great to "re-live" your past and remembering that you put it in your couch, how would going back help if you were not conscious that you lost your wallet, by dropping it for example? Your original body would not realize that you dropped it, so even if you go back a second time, you'd still not find it.
That goes the same for a pickpocketer. How would you know if someone is doing that to you when you go back? Does your consciousness have an out-of-the-body experience and see what you couldn't see before? Probably not, based on your explanation of doing all the actions and experiencing everything all over again. So, if you get pickpocketed without realizing it, you wouldn't find out even if you go back.
Then, there's things like sleep. Will your consciousness perceive your original body sleeping? Or will it fall asleep the same as you did before? Would you remember or experience past dreams? Would you still retain information about dreams when you wake up? Will your consciousness stay "awake" during sleep instead? If I relive the moment my house got robbed while I was asleep, would I be able to hear the robbers even though I was asleep before? There are a lot of questions to be answered here..
If your consciousness relives everything, does that include things that do affect consciousness like drinking alcohol? What if you relive the moment wherein you were drunk? Will the consciousness that went back in the past also become drunk? Wouldn't that mean that you won't be able to retain information during this state because the consciousness that went back is also drunk?
And finally, I'd worry about mental health. What if someone relives a very emotional moment in their life? The feeling of success, joy of being accepted by your partner, winning, pleasure, getting "high", etc. What if someone keeps reliving those moments everyday? If you go back to the present, you'd lose those feelings, and might want to do that all over again. That could stagnate someone or even depress them, as they try to compare their past from the present.
While these questions do not refer to having a paradox, it's curious how would this system work for an everyday person.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I do not see any issues with paradoxes with this "type" of time-travelling, there are some odd things that I'd question.
First of all, your example of losing your wallet. While it's great to "re-live" your past and remembering that you put it in your couch, how would going back help if you were not conscious that you lost your wallet, by dropping it for example? Your original body would not realize that you dropped it, so even if you go back a second time, you'd still not find it.
That goes the same for a pickpocketer. How would you know if someone is doing that to you when you go back? Does your consciousness have an out-of-the-body experience and see what you couldn't see before? Probably not, based on your explanation of doing all the actions and experiencing everything all over again. So, if you get pickpocketed without realizing it, you wouldn't find out even if you go back.
Then, there's things like sleep. Will your consciousness perceive your original body sleeping? Or will it fall asleep the same as you did before? Would you remember or experience past dreams? Would you still retain information about dreams when you wake up? Will your consciousness stay "awake" during sleep instead? If I relive the moment my house got robbed while I was asleep, would I be able to hear the robbers even though I was asleep before? There are a lot of questions to be answered here..
If your consciousness relives everything, does that include things that do affect consciousness like drinking alcohol? What if you relive the moment wherein you were drunk? Will the consciousness that went back in the past also become drunk? Wouldn't that mean that you won't be able to retain information during this state because the consciousness that went back is also drunk?
And finally, I'd worry about mental health. What if someone relives a very emotional moment in their life? The feeling of success, joy of being accepted by your partner, winning, pleasure, getting "high", etc. What if someone keeps reliving those moments everyday? If you go back to the present, you'd lose those feelings, and might want to do that all over again. That could stagnate someone or even depress them, as they try to compare their past from the present.
While these questions do not refer to having a paradox, it's curious how would this system work for an everyday person.
$endgroup$
While I do not see any issues with paradoxes with this "type" of time-travelling, there are some odd things that I'd question.
First of all, your example of losing your wallet. While it's great to "re-live" your past and remembering that you put it in your couch, how would going back help if you were not conscious that you lost your wallet, by dropping it for example? Your original body would not realize that you dropped it, so even if you go back a second time, you'd still not find it.
That goes the same for a pickpocketer. How would you know if someone is doing that to you when you go back? Does your consciousness have an out-of-the-body experience and see what you couldn't see before? Probably not, based on your explanation of doing all the actions and experiencing everything all over again. So, if you get pickpocketed without realizing it, you wouldn't find out even if you go back.
Then, there's things like sleep. Will your consciousness perceive your original body sleeping? Or will it fall asleep the same as you did before? Would you remember or experience past dreams? Would you still retain information about dreams when you wake up? Will your consciousness stay "awake" during sleep instead? If I relive the moment my house got robbed while I was asleep, would I be able to hear the robbers even though I was asleep before? There are a lot of questions to be answered here..
If your consciousness relives everything, does that include things that do affect consciousness like drinking alcohol? What if you relive the moment wherein you were drunk? Will the consciousness that went back in the past also become drunk? Wouldn't that mean that you won't be able to retain information during this state because the consciousness that went back is also drunk?
And finally, I'd worry about mental health. What if someone relives a very emotional moment in their life? The feeling of success, joy of being accepted by your partner, winning, pleasure, getting "high", etc. What if someone keeps reliving those moments everyday? If you go back to the present, you'd lose those feelings, and might want to do that all over again. That could stagnate someone or even depress them, as they try to compare their past from the present.
While these questions do not refer to having a paradox, it's curious how would this system work for an everyday person.
answered 9 hours ago
BasherBasher
64319
64319
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You have a whomping big paradox
You stipulate that the traveller "cannot change anything that happened to [he/she]." That's a problem. You can jump back and relive time, but you can't change the fact that you jumped back to relive time. You'll never live another second of free will at all. Let's investigate this.
Assumption
Let's ignore the entire is-there-free-will question by simply assuming that time becomes locked into place once experienced. From this perspective, you can jump into the past and "relive" it until the "present" while meeting your stipulation.
There is, of course, a problem with this. Nothing can change. You can't change the focus of your eyes, their placement, the attention you're giving to what you're listening to, nothing at all. Your conscious self is "reliving" the time from the perspective that it's storing the info into memory, but even if you had the ability to analyze what was happening — you can't do anything, change anything, nothing. It would be maddening, using your example, to jump back in time and not be able to actually focus on where you lost your wallet because you can't change what your physical body is doing: and what it's doing is not paying attention to the wallet.
But, let's return to the paradox...
You jump back and back and back... what happens to everyone else?
Because you can't change a darn thing, you're stuck. You made the mistake of choosing to jump back in time and you'll make that same choice, step into that same machine, watch Dr. Naidoo push that button to send you back, forever. Because you can't change anything.
What's the paradox? What's happening with everyone else? Theoretically, you took off to the past and your wife, grateful that you did, is now eyeballing the proverbial post man thinking that she has all the time in the world.
Or would she?
Does time become locked into place once a traveler makes that first jump? Or does it continue? The question can't be answered from the traveler's perspective. It can only be answered by you, the author, choosing how to resolve the paradox.
Does time stop for everyone when someone jumps backward, or not?
Edit
The reason this is a paradox is because everyone else is involved when someone jumps back in time. Fundamentally, everyone jumps back in time with him (unless you want to declare that there are two independent time streams: one for the traveler and one for everyone else). If the traveler can't get out of the time loop, neither can anyone else. Time stops moving forward for everyone.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
$endgroup$
– pipe
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You have a whomping big paradox
You stipulate that the traveller "cannot change anything that happened to [he/she]." That's a problem. You can jump back and relive time, but you can't change the fact that you jumped back to relive time. You'll never live another second of free will at all. Let's investigate this.
Assumption
Let's ignore the entire is-there-free-will question by simply assuming that time becomes locked into place once experienced. From this perspective, you can jump into the past and "relive" it until the "present" while meeting your stipulation.
There is, of course, a problem with this. Nothing can change. You can't change the focus of your eyes, their placement, the attention you're giving to what you're listening to, nothing at all. Your conscious self is "reliving" the time from the perspective that it's storing the info into memory, but even if you had the ability to analyze what was happening — you can't do anything, change anything, nothing. It would be maddening, using your example, to jump back in time and not be able to actually focus on where you lost your wallet because you can't change what your physical body is doing: and what it's doing is not paying attention to the wallet.
But, let's return to the paradox...
You jump back and back and back... what happens to everyone else?
Because you can't change a darn thing, you're stuck. You made the mistake of choosing to jump back in time and you'll make that same choice, step into that same machine, watch Dr. Naidoo push that button to send you back, forever. Because you can't change anything.
What's the paradox? What's happening with everyone else? Theoretically, you took off to the past and your wife, grateful that you did, is now eyeballing the proverbial post man thinking that she has all the time in the world.
Or would she?
Does time become locked into place once a traveler makes that first jump? Or does it continue? The question can't be answered from the traveler's perspective. It can only be answered by you, the author, choosing how to resolve the paradox.
Does time stop for everyone when someone jumps backward, or not?
Edit
The reason this is a paradox is because everyone else is involved when someone jumps back in time. Fundamentally, everyone jumps back in time with him (unless you want to declare that there are two independent time streams: one for the traveler and one for everyone else). If the traveler can't get out of the time loop, neither can anyone else. Time stops moving forward for everyone.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
$endgroup$
– pipe
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You have a whomping big paradox
You stipulate that the traveller "cannot change anything that happened to [he/she]." That's a problem. You can jump back and relive time, but you can't change the fact that you jumped back to relive time. You'll never live another second of free will at all. Let's investigate this.
Assumption
Let's ignore the entire is-there-free-will question by simply assuming that time becomes locked into place once experienced. From this perspective, you can jump into the past and "relive" it until the "present" while meeting your stipulation.
There is, of course, a problem with this. Nothing can change. You can't change the focus of your eyes, their placement, the attention you're giving to what you're listening to, nothing at all. Your conscious self is "reliving" the time from the perspective that it's storing the info into memory, but even if you had the ability to analyze what was happening — you can't do anything, change anything, nothing. It would be maddening, using your example, to jump back in time and not be able to actually focus on where you lost your wallet because you can't change what your physical body is doing: and what it's doing is not paying attention to the wallet.
But, let's return to the paradox...
You jump back and back and back... what happens to everyone else?
Because you can't change a darn thing, you're stuck. You made the mistake of choosing to jump back in time and you'll make that same choice, step into that same machine, watch Dr. Naidoo push that button to send you back, forever. Because you can't change anything.
What's the paradox? What's happening with everyone else? Theoretically, you took off to the past and your wife, grateful that you did, is now eyeballing the proverbial post man thinking that she has all the time in the world.
Or would she?
Does time become locked into place once a traveler makes that first jump? Or does it continue? The question can't be answered from the traveler's perspective. It can only be answered by you, the author, choosing how to resolve the paradox.
Does time stop for everyone when someone jumps backward, or not?
Edit
The reason this is a paradox is because everyone else is involved when someone jumps back in time. Fundamentally, everyone jumps back in time with him (unless you want to declare that there are two independent time streams: one for the traveler and one for everyone else). If the traveler can't get out of the time loop, neither can anyone else. Time stops moving forward for everyone.
$endgroup$
You have a whomping big paradox
You stipulate that the traveller "cannot change anything that happened to [he/she]." That's a problem. You can jump back and relive time, but you can't change the fact that you jumped back to relive time. You'll never live another second of free will at all. Let's investigate this.
Assumption
Let's ignore the entire is-there-free-will question by simply assuming that time becomes locked into place once experienced. From this perspective, you can jump into the past and "relive" it until the "present" while meeting your stipulation.
There is, of course, a problem with this. Nothing can change. You can't change the focus of your eyes, their placement, the attention you're giving to what you're listening to, nothing at all. Your conscious self is "reliving" the time from the perspective that it's storing the info into memory, but even if you had the ability to analyze what was happening — you can't do anything, change anything, nothing. It would be maddening, using your example, to jump back in time and not be able to actually focus on where you lost your wallet because you can't change what your physical body is doing: and what it's doing is not paying attention to the wallet.
But, let's return to the paradox...
You jump back and back and back... what happens to everyone else?
Because you can't change a darn thing, you're stuck. You made the mistake of choosing to jump back in time and you'll make that same choice, step into that same machine, watch Dr. Naidoo push that button to send you back, forever. Because you can't change anything.
What's the paradox? What's happening with everyone else? Theoretically, you took off to the past and your wife, grateful that you did, is now eyeballing the proverbial post man thinking that she has all the time in the world.
Or would she?
Does time become locked into place once a traveler makes that first jump? Or does it continue? The question can't be answered from the traveler's perspective. It can only be answered by you, the author, choosing how to resolve the paradox.
Does time stop for everyone when someone jumps backward, or not?
Edit
The reason this is a paradox is because everyone else is involved when someone jumps back in time. Fundamentally, everyone jumps back in time with him (unless you want to declare that there are two independent time streams: one for the traveler and one for everyone else). If the traveler can't get out of the time loop, neither can anyone else. Time stops moving forward for everyone.
answered 7 hours ago
JBHJBH
41.4k591197
41.4k591197
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"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
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– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
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@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
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– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
$endgroup$
– pipe
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
$endgroup$
– pipe
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
"Time stops moving forward for everyone." Sure. Right up until the instant the traveller's consciousness arrives back at the starting point. Then, since no time has passed for the stay-at-homes, everything picks up where it left off, with no one (except the now-mentally-older traveller) aware that anything has happened.
$endgroup$
– WhatRoughBeast
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@WhatRoughBeast, remember, the "starting point" was the moment when the the traveller went back in time - and now goes back in time again. How do you break the loop?
$endgroup$
– JBH
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
$endgroup$
– pipe
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
This needs more upvotes. This paradox is real.
$endgroup$
– pipe
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes and no....
Part of time is that not only does the past affect the future, but the future also affects the past.
By going back in time and taking note of the pickpocket, for example, you learn enough about him to file a police report, so you do so.
However, had you not gone into the past to discover what happened to your wallet, you have still changed the future, as you would not have reported it stolen had you not discovered it was stolen and not lost.
So, say instead, you were going to meet a friend for lunch, and in the future, that friend would have dropped his wallet, and lost it at your lunch. Now, he doesn't lose it...
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But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
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– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
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– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
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– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
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– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes and no....
Part of time is that not only does the past affect the future, but the future also affects the past.
By going back in time and taking note of the pickpocket, for example, you learn enough about him to file a police report, so you do so.
However, had you not gone into the past to discover what happened to your wallet, you have still changed the future, as you would not have reported it stolen had you not discovered it was stolen and not lost.
So, say instead, you were going to meet a friend for lunch, and in the future, that friend would have dropped his wallet, and lost it at your lunch. Now, he doesn't lose it...
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yes and no....
Part of time is that not only does the past affect the future, but the future also affects the past.
By going back in time and taking note of the pickpocket, for example, you learn enough about him to file a police report, so you do so.
However, had you not gone into the past to discover what happened to your wallet, you have still changed the future, as you would not have reported it stolen had you not discovered it was stolen and not lost.
So, say instead, you were going to meet a friend for lunch, and in the future, that friend would have dropped his wallet, and lost it at your lunch. Now, he doesn't lose it...
$endgroup$
Yes and no....
Part of time is that not only does the past affect the future, but the future also affects the past.
By going back in time and taking note of the pickpocket, for example, you learn enough about him to file a police report, so you do so.
However, had you not gone into the past to discover what happened to your wallet, you have still changed the future, as you would not have reported it stolen had you not discovered it was stolen and not lost.
So, say instead, you were going to meet a friend for lunch, and in the future, that friend would have dropped his wallet, and lost it at your lunch. Now, he doesn't lose it...
edited 10 hours ago
answered 10 hours ago
Richard URichard U
5,303931
5,303931
$begingroup$
But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But how does he travel back in time to not steal the wallet? He can't change his past actions
$endgroup$
– Cort Ammon
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CortAmmon I changed it, thanks.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
But changing the future isn't a paradox at all. I could decide to shave my head tomorrow, or decide not to. They are mutually exclusive futures, and my actions directly determine which one will occur. Selecting among possible futures that could happen is a normal occurrence that happens with everyday choices all the time - not a paradox.
$endgroup$
– Nuclear Wang
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
@NuclearWang but there is a difference. Your future self has already made those choices. by having your present self go back and view something that causes those choices to change, you create a paradox for your future self.
$endgroup$
– Richard U
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You go back by rewinding, but your conscience does not go backwards? It is actually remembering future events relative to the time you return to you. It's like information travels backwards with you. In the first scenario you can act to undo mistakes and therefore the mistake was never done and there was no reason for the trip - That's already a paradox. In the second scenario, the same things will happen again. That is, you do the same mistakes even though you know it. What prevents you from taking corrective measures? Why, in your example, you would see the pickpocketer and could do nothing about it? Would you be able to see him from a different angle and still be unable to warn your past-yourself? Suppose you stopped your time-rewind and returned to "replay", will you be the "same one", or will another observer see you and your past-you?
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$begingroup$
This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You go back by rewinding, but your conscience does not go backwards? It is actually remembering future events relative to the time you return to you. It's like information travels backwards with you. In the first scenario you can act to undo mistakes and therefore the mistake was never done and there was no reason for the trip - That's already a paradox. In the second scenario, the same things will happen again. That is, you do the same mistakes even though you know it. What prevents you from taking corrective measures? Why, in your example, you would see the pickpocketer and could do nothing about it? Would you be able to see him from a different angle and still be unable to warn your past-yourself? Suppose you stopped your time-rewind and returned to "replay", will you be the "same one", or will another observer see you and your past-you?
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You go back by rewinding, but your conscience does not go backwards? It is actually remembering future events relative to the time you return to you. It's like information travels backwards with you. In the first scenario you can act to undo mistakes and therefore the mistake was never done and there was no reason for the trip - That's already a paradox. In the second scenario, the same things will happen again. That is, you do the same mistakes even though you know it. What prevents you from taking corrective measures? Why, in your example, you would see the pickpocketer and could do nothing about it? Would you be able to see him from a different angle and still be unable to warn your past-yourself? Suppose you stopped your time-rewind and returned to "replay", will you be the "same one", or will another observer see you and your past-you?
$endgroup$
You go back by rewinding, but your conscience does not go backwards? It is actually remembering future events relative to the time you return to you. It's like information travels backwards with you. In the first scenario you can act to undo mistakes and therefore the mistake was never done and there was no reason for the trip - That's already a paradox. In the second scenario, the same things will happen again. That is, you do the same mistakes even though you know it. What prevents you from taking corrective measures? Why, in your example, you would see the pickpocketer and could do nothing about it? Would you be able to see him from a different angle and still be unable to warn your past-yourself? Suppose you stopped your time-rewind and returned to "replay", will you be the "same one", or will another observer see you and your past-you?
answered 10 hours ago
Christmas SnowChristmas Snow
2,291314
2,291314
$begingroup$
This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
This goes back to the philosophocal mind-brain problem - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/… - which exists in various forms. For these purposes, I am assuming that mind (consciousness) is separate from the workings of the brain. Therefore the time-traveller's brain carries out all the original actions as an automaton but the mind cannot affect them in any way - only observe.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Your system cannot work with our understanding of physics.
Think of Schrödinger' cat. The effect most people associate to it cannot be reproduced on a macroscopic object such as a cat, but it is reproducible with particles. It is happening at every moment to every subatomic particle. But for the sake of argument, let's call some paint particles on a brick of a wall our cat particles. They can cause the paint to peel off in various patterns; You will only know when you observe them.
You passed by your backyard yesterday without paying attention to a certain brick. Today you notice some paint is peeling off that brick, forming a pattern.
You go back to the "past" to do the wallet finding thing. You think you lost it close to the wall, so now you pay attention to the brick.
The fact that you are observing them on the past means they have to collapse their wave function at that moment, so the universe decides whether and how the paint peels off at that moment. You just changed the past.
You have a paradox now. If the paint must always off to be just as you remember from the "present", then the wave function collapse in the "present" extended to the "past", meaning anything happening in the present affects and changes the "past" retroactively. Otherwise, wave function collapsing from direct "past" observations may cause changes to events anyway, and those changed will accumulate through time a la butterfly effect.
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$begingroup$
I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
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– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
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– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
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– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
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– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
Your system cannot work with our understanding of physics.
Think of Schrödinger' cat. The effect most people associate to it cannot be reproduced on a macroscopic object such as a cat, but it is reproducible with particles. It is happening at every moment to every subatomic particle. But for the sake of argument, let's call some paint particles on a brick of a wall our cat particles. They can cause the paint to peel off in various patterns; You will only know when you observe them.
You passed by your backyard yesterday without paying attention to a certain brick. Today you notice some paint is peeling off that brick, forming a pattern.
You go back to the "past" to do the wallet finding thing. You think you lost it close to the wall, so now you pay attention to the brick.
The fact that you are observing them on the past means they have to collapse their wave function at that moment, so the universe decides whether and how the paint peels off at that moment. You just changed the past.
You have a paradox now. If the paint must always off to be just as you remember from the "present", then the wave function collapse in the "present" extended to the "past", meaning anything happening in the present affects and changes the "past" retroactively. Otherwise, wave function collapsing from direct "past" observations may cause changes to events anyway, and those changed will accumulate through time a la butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
Your system cannot work with our understanding of physics.
Think of Schrödinger' cat. The effect most people associate to it cannot be reproduced on a macroscopic object such as a cat, but it is reproducible with particles. It is happening at every moment to every subatomic particle. But for the sake of argument, let's call some paint particles on a brick of a wall our cat particles. They can cause the paint to peel off in various patterns; You will only know when you observe them.
You passed by your backyard yesterday without paying attention to a certain brick. Today you notice some paint is peeling off that brick, forming a pattern.
You go back to the "past" to do the wallet finding thing. You think you lost it close to the wall, so now you pay attention to the brick.
The fact that you are observing them on the past means they have to collapse their wave function at that moment, so the universe decides whether and how the paint peels off at that moment. You just changed the past.
You have a paradox now. If the paint must always off to be just as you remember from the "present", then the wave function collapse in the "present" extended to the "past", meaning anything happening in the present affects and changes the "past" retroactively. Otherwise, wave function collapsing from direct "past" observations may cause changes to events anyway, and those changed will accumulate through time a la butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
Your system cannot work with our understanding of physics.
Think of Schrödinger' cat. The effect most people associate to it cannot be reproduced on a macroscopic object such as a cat, but it is reproducible with particles. It is happening at every moment to every subatomic particle. But for the sake of argument, let's call some paint particles on a brick of a wall our cat particles. They can cause the paint to peel off in various patterns; You will only know when you observe them.
You passed by your backyard yesterday without paying attention to a certain brick. Today you notice some paint is peeling off that brick, forming a pattern.
You go back to the "past" to do the wallet finding thing. You think you lost it close to the wall, so now you pay attention to the brick.
The fact that you are observing them on the past means they have to collapse their wave function at that moment, so the universe decides whether and how the paint peels off at that moment. You just changed the past.
You have a paradox now. If the paint must always off to be just as you remember from the "present", then the wave function collapse in the "present" extended to the "past", meaning anything happening in the present affects and changes the "past" retroactively. Otherwise, wave function collapsing from direct "past" observations may cause changes to events anyway, and those changed will accumulate through time a la butterfly effect.
edited 9 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
RenanRenan
45.7k11106231
45.7k11106231
$begingroup$
I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I am assuming a mind-brain separation. Isn't it physical observation that collapses the waveform? In my scenario my mind (or soul or whatever you want to call it) is merely being conscious of what the brain is doing physically. The physical activity of the brain is identical every time. In other words your eye may have collapsed the waveform the first time but your consciousness was focused on something else.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If your brain will be doing the same thing everytime, you won't be able to do the wallet finding trick from the question - you will just forget the wallet in exact same fashion. Otherwise you are introducing a new observer to the past.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yes. Your consciousness is the observer of your body. There is some evidence that consciousness is no more than an observer of what we do and is simply an epiphenomenon. I'll look for the references. Here is a start - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Here's a more up-to-date version although just an informal article not the original paper. - "Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision." - nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@ChaslyfromUK that doedn't change the fact that it is made of neuronal impulses, which you said will be yhe same on every trip to the past. If that's so, the conscience in the past will make the same decisions and forget the wallet the same way every time; hence, the premise of the question is invalid. I am nitpicking, yes, but I am doing so as a frame challenge.
$endgroup$
– Renan
9 hours ago
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
You're missing something... you are re-living things, but without being able to control the body you must somehow also be aware of the thoughts of your past-tense self. So you're not just sensing it, you're also sensing yourself! If this were not so, then as you were living "forwards from the past" how could you make an informed judgment as you live out the predetermined history again?
Also, if you were to re-live the same thing twice, you would necessarily become aware of the you that was re-living it the first time, since that, too, was you. Otherwise you could never re-live what you had been thinking when you re-saw what you saw!
Then if you re-lived the same thing many times, your experience would be crowded with your own consciousness and it would be overwhelming.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You're missing something... you are re-living things, but without being able to control the body you must somehow also be aware of the thoughts of your past-tense self. So you're not just sensing it, you're also sensing yourself! If this were not so, then as you were living "forwards from the past" how could you make an informed judgment as you live out the predetermined history again?
Also, if you were to re-live the same thing twice, you would necessarily become aware of the you that was re-living it the first time, since that, too, was you. Otherwise you could never re-live what you had been thinking when you re-saw what you saw!
Then if you re-lived the same thing many times, your experience would be crowded with your own consciousness and it would be overwhelming.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You're missing something... you are re-living things, but without being able to control the body you must somehow also be aware of the thoughts of your past-tense self. So you're not just sensing it, you're also sensing yourself! If this were not so, then as you were living "forwards from the past" how could you make an informed judgment as you live out the predetermined history again?
Also, if you were to re-live the same thing twice, you would necessarily become aware of the you that was re-living it the first time, since that, too, was you. Otherwise you could never re-live what you had been thinking when you re-saw what you saw!
Then if you re-lived the same thing many times, your experience would be crowded with your own consciousness and it would be overwhelming.
$endgroup$
You're missing something... you are re-living things, but without being able to control the body you must somehow also be aware of the thoughts of your past-tense self. So you're not just sensing it, you're also sensing yourself! If this were not so, then as you were living "forwards from the past" how could you make an informed judgment as you live out the predetermined history again?
Also, if you were to re-live the same thing twice, you would necessarily become aware of the you that was re-living it the first time, since that, too, was you. Otherwise you could never re-live what you had been thinking when you re-saw what you saw!
Then if you re-lived the same thing many times, your experience would be crowded with your own consciousness and it would be overwhelming.
answered 8 hours ago
elliot svenssonelliot svensson
1453
1453
$begingroup$
You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
You have a memory of the old you and you overlay it with new consciousness each iteration - therefore you do indeed get layers of memory. However they must of necessity be very similar because you can't move your eyes differently for example. All you can do is pay attention to different messages from your physical form and build up an ever more stronger (but limited in scope) memory. What you can do is think about the meanings behind people's actions as you become more familiar with precisely what they did.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If you do that, then you are changing connections in your brain in the past, since memories are neurophysioloyical. This can cause a butterfly effect.
$endgroup$
– Renan
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
If @Renan is right, then causality is broken.
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@chaslyfromUK, it will be very strange, to say the least, to be in a body without any control of the body. Let's say that you just realized that a person was in love with you but you didn't know it the first time around... under normal circumstances your heart would race, right? ...but that couldn't happen, because You were disembodied! Then when you arrive at the present again, does your heart race?
$endgroup$
– elliot svensson
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Dear all - I find that I am repeatedly answering the same points in different comment sections. I have to go now but I'll try to make a coverall statement tomorrow and put it in the actual question as an addendum.
$endgroup$
– chasly from UK
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is not a coherent concept. Time traveling in this way would be indistinguishable from not time traveling at all.
Imagine you give me something that is either this time travel device or a placebo. It's 5:00, and I intent to travel back to 5:00 at 6:00.
Here's my reasoning at 5:00: "Hmm, this could be the me that hasn't yet pushed the button. Or this could be the me from 6:00 coming back to 5:00. I can't tell any difference. If I could, I could act differently and change the past. Seems to be working."
Here's my reasoning at 6:00: "Okay, I'm ready to push the button. Let's see what happens next. Well, I guess, I sort of do. I mean, I already pushed the button in some sense."
Here's my reasoning at 6:01: "Cool. I pushed the button. I remember living from 5:00 to 6:00. I remember pushing the button. It all seems cool to me. I guess it worked. Maybe."
There is no conceivable way anyone could tell the difference between having this device and not. Consciousness always implies the ability to use your memory to make decisions. If you could ever remember the future, you would encounter paradoxes because with that memory, you could act on future knowledge and without it, you could not.
If you mean time travel where I go back to the past, remember the future, but cannot base my decisions on what I know, you're talking about a torture device that turns us into watchers rather than deciders and actors. If I go back in time, can I act based on my memories or not?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is not a coherent concept. Time traveling in this way would be indistinguishable from not time traveling at all.
Imagine you give me something that is either this time travel device or a placebo. It's 5:00, and I intent to travel back to 5:00 at 6:00.
Here's my reasoning at 5:00: "Hmm, this could be the me that hasn't yet pushed the button. Or this could be the me from 6:00 coming back to 5:00. I can't tell any difference. If I could, I could act differently and change the past. Seems to be working."
Here's my reasoning at 6:00: "Okay, I'm ready to push the button. Let's see what happens next. Well, I guess, I sort of do. I mean, I already pushed the button in some sense."
Here's my reasoning at 6:01: "Cool. I pushed the button. I remember living from 5:00 to 6:00. I remember pushing the button. It all seems cool to me. I guess it worked. Maybe."
There is no conceivable way anyone could tell the difference between having this device and not. Consciousness always implies the ability to use your memory to make decisions. If you could ever remember the future, you would encounter paradoxes because with that memory, you could act on future knowledge and without it, you could not.
If you mean time travel where I go back to the past, remember the future, but cannot base my decisions on what I know, you're talking about a torture device that turns us into watchers rather than deciders and actors. If I go back in time, can I act based on my memories or not?
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is not a coherent concept. Time traveling in this way would be indistinguishable from not time traveling at all.
Imagine you give me something that is either this time travel device or a placebo. It's 5:00, and I intent to travel back to 5:00 at 6:00.
Here's my reasoning at 5:00: "Hmm, this could be the me that hasn't yet pushed the button. Or this could be the me from 6:00 coming back to 5:00. I can't tell any difference. If I could, I could act differently and change the past. Seems to be working."
Here's my reasoning at 6:00: "Okay, I'm ready to push the button. Let's see what happens next. Well, I guess, I sort of do. I mean, I already pushed the button in some sense."
Here's my reasoning at 6:01: "Cool. I pushed the button. I remember living from 5:00 to 6:00. I remember pushing the button. It all seems cool to me. I guess it worked. Maybe."
There is no conceivable way anyone could tell the difference between having this device and not. Consciousness always implies the ability to use your memory to make decisions. If you could ever remember the future, you would encounter paradoxes because with that memory, you could act on future knowledge and without it, you could not.
If you mean time travel where I go back to the past, remember the future, but cannot base my decisions on what I know, you're talking about a torture device that turns us into watchers rather than deciders and actors. If I go back in time, can I act based on my memories or not?
$endgroup$
This is not a coherent concept. Time traveling in this way would be indistinguishable from not time traveling at all.
Imagine you give me something that is either this time travel device or a placebo. It's 5:00, and I intent to travel back to 5:00 at 6:00.
Here's my reasoning at 5:00: "Hmm, this could be the me that hasn't yet pushed the button. Or this could be the me from 6:00 coming back to 5:00. I can't tell any difference. If I could, I could act differently and change the past. Seems to be working."
Here's my reasoning at 6:00: "Okay, I'm ready to push the button. Let's see what happens next. Well, I guess, I sort of do. I mean, I already pushed the button in some sense."
Here's my reasoning at 6:01: "Cool. I pushed the button. I remember living from 5:00 to 6:00. I remember pushing the button. It all seems cool to me. I guess it worked. Maybe."
There is no conceivable way anyone could tell the difference between having this device and not. Consciousness always implies the ability to use your memory to make decisions. If you could ever remember the future, you would encounter paradoxes because with that memory, you could act on future knowledge and without it, you could not.
If you mean time travel where I go back to the past, remember the future, but cannot base my decisions on what I know, you're talking about a torture device that turns us into watchers rather than deciders and actors. If I go back in time, can I act based on my memories or not?
answered 2 hours ago
David SchwartzDavid Schwartz
994
994
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
$endgroup$
– L.Dutch♦
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
For some reason, this made me think of All You Zombies even though the time travel mechanism is very different.
$endgroup$
– Walter Mitty
1 hour ago